good and bad throws

[Ian]

one criteria for throws IMO is the velocity at which and distance over which the opponent's hips and feet travel.







if the opponent's hips and feet

-are displaced only a small distance
-at relatively low speeds

it probably isn't a good throw.

sometimes you see throws where hips and feet travel only half of their full arc, or are displaced at low speeds (lack explosiveness).

it seems only a few internal guys get this, perhaps because of a lack of formal training in the throwing arts.

thoughts?

[everything]

I think you're saying high amplitude is good and high speed is good. It's hard to argue if your goal is slam the person down with maximum force, or maybe get ippon in judo.

However, I kind of come from the other side of this somewhat in that it also can take you more energy (not necessarily). I tend to like drops (otoshi in judo) a lot more than hip throws or throws like suplex or sacrifice throws. They can be very fast but not necessarily cause a lot of distance to be traveled. I guess I really prefer xingyi type knockdowns over high throws or takedowns.

At the other extreme, if your goal is really to enter bjj ground match or mma gnp or laynpray it probably favors takedowns that don't require maximum slamming down force since you don't get style points for it. Same thing with restraining type scenarios where your goal isn't to slam someone down.

[Andy_S]

Ian:

To me, the most devastating throws are those that:
(1) Come from higher up (eg Judo's shoulder or spring hip throws) so the throwee has further to fall; or
(2) Compromises the opponents structure by twisting his spine then taking him down so he can't break his fall.

IMA does not use much of the former (though spring hip is used in, for eg, Chen Taiji) but does use a lot of the latter.

[baguaboy]

Some throws that get missed in this kind of debate are ones that use the head as the main point of purchase/grab - especially when we talk about 'devastating'!
Of course these are not legal in MMA or Judo, but for me they are the kind of throw I'd try and do when I was in nasty trouble. You can get some strong holds by fastening the face against the chest and wrap the occipital or chin and using the weakness of the neck to get more co-operation/tap

I've found that these kind of grips really hard to defend, and nigh impossible to stop the throws that can follow.

Fedor's defence against some of the shoots in the video above follow the same rule - control the head shoulders - guillotine etc.

Thanks for the videos Ian. Love the demos and techniques.

Nick

[middleway]

the nastiest throws i have been subjected too were from Daito Ryu where both your hands are tied and you are dropped head first at the mat and scooped onto your back at the last minute.... Really these done properly are completely devastating killing moves/seriously mess you up moves n you have to trust your partner big time .... naaaaaaaasty! Also ones where you are dropped spine first onto a static platform like a knee .... again ... partner trust is a big thing here.

I am with you Iain on the acceleration in certain throwing methods being an indicator of usefulness in terms of damage or effectiveness. But like others have said, also some of the hardest throws to stop are those that manipulate the spine or neck with a twist force.... not sure you would describe those as 'throws' though ... more like knock downs or something.

I always say there are essentially three things to throwing.

Support - offbalance point - structure. any of these alone can take a person down ... when manipulation of these three things is combined to varying degrees they will definitely result in the person going down.

so in some respects speed or acceleration isnt an issue if we just want to take someone to the floor. If we want to cause some damage ... which of course we do ... then accelerating their mass into the ground or amplifying their masses effect by making them contact with a small surface area rather than their back is defo important.

Cracking vids by the way ... Fedors movement skill is far in advance of any of the others IMO.

Cheers
Chris

[nianfong]

actually the definition of a good throw is the quality of the control before the throw happens. you can do a good throw slowly or at high speed. it's all about the setup and how tight you have your control over the other person.

-Fong

[Brady]

if the opponent's hips and feet

-are displaced only a small distance
-at relatively low speeds

it probably isn't a good throw.

sometimes you see throws where hips and feet travel only half of their full arc, or are displaced at low speeds (lack explosiveness).

it seems only a few internal guys get this, perhaps because of a lack of formal training in the throwing arts.

thoughts?

One of the big concepts in the Judo I learned was that each throw has a big circle and small circle. In the throws you are describing, the small circle would be at the contact point and the big circle in the legs/body of the opponent. Most stylistic, over the back throws work with this strategy.
There are methods though, where one creates a big circle at the contact point and thus the opponent's hips and legs will not move fast or far. These can be equally, if not more, destructive, especially if you the direction is head into ground. I find these throws most useful when the opponent is skillful and not giving you a small lever to work with at contact point.
Perhaps a simplification of the method, but I always found it be a useful way of organizing throw strategies.