Knife Self Def - Live!

[Andy_S]

I like this chap:He gets right in there, controls the weapon hand and then does the business on the 'attacker.' Pretty impressive demo, I thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v0J5B63 ... re=related

[C.J.Wang]

I'd recommend the "red marker" test to some of the Systema practitioners we've seen on video in training their knife defenses.

[klonk]

Hint: The erasable white board markers have water soluble ink, which you can wash off your skin. Don't use the permanent "Magic Markers" unless you want everyone to know just how inept you are at knife defense.

[RobP2]

I'd recommend the "red marker" test to some of the Systema practitioners we've seen on video in training their knife defenses.

done it. It's ok but what do you do while the other guy is going all out? Do you go all out too?



Feel free to post anything you have of your own work. The clip is ok but the other guy stops once he makes contact with him

[kshurika]

That red mark in the center of the first presenter's chest didn't look so good.

The second thing: HILARIOUS! It confirms what I've always thought of Systema (which I've never done myself). Guys doing the twisty boogaloo, while another guy attacks them in slo-mo (and stabs them repeatedly). Then, it's time for "Let's use our arms for knife defense!" I had to turn it off at that point because the tears of laughter were blurring my vision. And the "danger music" coupled with the inept knife defense? .................................... better than Laurel and Hardy.

Hey, Systema guys! Come to L.A. and use your twisty boogaloo and "arm defense" against MS13 and the R60s Crips. And best of luck to you and your next of kin.

[yusuf]

..good find Andy..

btw on Rob's video, towards the end they go towards what Ryabko show, bboogaloo body with a big hit to finish... that seems to be th ebest thing for knife stuff..

[dtactics]

That red mark in the center of the first presenter's chest didn't look so good.

The second thing: HILARIOUS! It confirms what I've always thought of Systema (which I've never done myself). Guys doing the twisty boogaloo, while another guy attacks them in slo-mo (and stabs them repeatedly). Then, it's time for "Let's use our arms for knife defense!" I had to turn it off at that point because the tears of laughter were blurring my vision. And the "danger music" coupled with the inept knife defense? .................................... better than Laurel and Hardy.

Hey, Systema guys! Come to L.A. and use your twisty boogaloo and "arm defense" against MS13 and the R60s Crips. And best of luck to you and your next of kin.

Well, I'm a Systema guy and I happen to agree with you. Those who claim this twisty boogaloo works or their one "deep" strike will stop a determined knife wielder (your own student don't count) are full of crap. And this goes for most knife systems out there.

I remember Frank Arias (Throwdown guy from RMA HQ) after considerable wound licking from his embarrassing encounter with a (nice) Muay Thai opponent, telling everyone that if only the attacks were more real, his Systema could have come out to play. Such fanciful rationalization is what gives Systema its bad name. Bottom line, he should of been thanking his lucky stars they weren't more real instead of talking smack. Like any other art, Systema has its good, its bad, and it's deep pile of BS instructors trying to ride off the coat-tails of Vlad and Mikhail's accomplishments.

[RobP2]

Well, like I said, do feel free to post your own knife defence clips, I'm always interested to see how people approch it - if they do.

Yusuf - I think you are right, shutting the other guy down quick as possible seems to tbe the best thing - but the difficulty is always in training it. The troll is partly correct in that there has to be a level of compliance in any training, but how best to get round that? I think there are very few people who could claim to be "experts" against a knife and even then they will tell you luck plays a part. You know there are people who survive knife and gun attacks without any training too

Kushurika - you can check out Martin Wheeler in LA http://www.wheelersystema.com/classes

cheers

Rob

[Andy_S]

RE: Systema Knife Def:

Here is Karl Tanswell on how (and why) he gate crashed a Systema seminar on knife self defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdb2hWNJF5U

One could critique him for being a disrespectful fellow - after all, he is a protege of Thornton, who is the ultimate trash talker in MA - but he knows whereof he speaks: He survived a near fatal knife assault, which forced him to rethink everything he had learned and taught about knife self defense. His knife self defense system is the ultimate, stripped-down non-bollocks SD system. He may not please Systema or Philippine MA peeps, but his voice is worth listening to.

Some key points:

THERE IS NO DISTANCE WORK: If you see the knife - you run. Only when you are already in contact do you fight (ie you have to). This obviates about 80 percent of the knife SD work I have seen (and done).

DONT GIVE HIM SPACE - DONT GIVE HIM SPACE TO WORK WITH HIS TOOL...It's NOT THE ARM THAT DOES THE DAMAGE ITS THE WEIGHT BEHIND IT. Close down and control the weapon arm at the grapple range.

LOOK AT THE STATS...THERE ARE VERY FEW SINGLE WOUNDS ....I WAS STABBED SEVEN TIMES IN SECONDS...ONCE HE HAS BUILT THAT FRENZIED STATE, HE IS GONNA STAB, STAB, STAB: Training to deal with single thrusts or slashes is nonsensical.

YOU RUN AT ANY POINT YOU CAN. Nuff said.

Here is the clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KAT5-OI ... re=related

(NOTE: I have never met anyone from SBG, bar my sometime BJJ instructor John Frankl, who is hands down the best martial artist I have met anywhere, ever. He personally cited Tanswell's approach; I'd consider that a very strong endorsement.)

Would be interested in other's opinions on the above, esp McKinley and the Systema chaps.

[Andy_S]

Gents:

I am not given either to public service or to public service announcements, but I would respectfully draw your attention to the "Knife Self Def - Live!" thread....most particularly the Karl Tanswell post.

I just found, and posted, a YouTube clip of Tanswell who (for reasons given on the thread) is, I believe, a voice of reason in knife self defense. I first heard about him a couple of years ago from a HIGHLY credible source (details also given in the post) but did not know that he (Tanswell) had a web presence.

For anyone who has ever considered this aspect of SD - which would be everyone reading this forum, I'd guess - I recommend looking at his clip (the second one in the post, albeit the first is also worth a peruse). He makes, IMHO, some very important points.

End message. (Andy_S salutes, bows, exits stage left.)

[Areios]

Well I will tell you guys i'm no weapon expert, never been in a knife fight but that is why i'm gonna go with the gentleman who was even if that was just a short violent experience in his life.
And being one of the guys who just can't outrun an avrege man, i always have a knife with me. So informations like that are always welcomed with me.

[kshurika]

Kushurika (sic) - you can check out Martin Wheeler in LA http://www.wheelersystema.com/classes

Now, would that be THIS Martin Wheeler?


http://wheelersystema.com/1048/iowa-knife-seminar



If so, then it can't be denied that "Martin developed his Kenpo to be acclaimed by the masters of the art as ’simply amazing’ ". (And I'm certain he wouldn't have written that copy himself.) However, looking at his knife defense video, he also seems to have mastered the art of teaching slo-mo twisty boogaloo, along with the use of the arms as defenses against knives. It seems to be simple, effortless, natural movement that will get your ass stabbed and slashed many, many times before you bleed out.

Also, on his website, Martin replicates the old warhorse that Systema is an ancient Slavic art, when, in fact, we all know that it was pieced together during the Stalin era from several Asian arts - notably Judo - and Western boxing. Others can jump in and treat this issue with much more knowledge than I possess.

[Sprint]

Andy_S

I'm with you 100%. The systema guy that Kshurika highlights says you should not be scared of the blade!? wtf. For anyone who has any doubts you should be extremely afraid - if it helps, always think of a knife as being a hypo filled with aids infected blood.

I remember a long time ago I knew a few guys that fought with knives, but truly they were not trying to kill anyone; nor were the other gangs that they fought with trying to do likewise. It was just kid's bravado BS. Nowadays people do try to kill each other and the way it's done is exactly like the guy in Andy-S 's video does it - grab and stab.

[middleway]

Cheers andy,

Just watched it and the guy certainly has his head firmly screwed on!

Thanks

Chris

[RobP2]

One could critique him for being a disrespectful fellow - after all, he is a protege of Thornton, who is the ultimate trash talker in MA - but he knows whereof he speaks: He survived a near fatal knife assault, which forced him to rethink everything he had learned and taught about knife self defense. His knife self defense system is the ultimate, stripped-down non-bollocks SD system. He may not please Systema or Philippine MA peeps, but his voice is worth listening to.

Some key points:

THERE IS NO DISTANCE WORK: If you see the knife - you run. Only when you are already in contact do you fight (ie you have to). This obviates about 80 percent of the knife SD work I have seen (and done).

DONT GIVE HIM SPACE - DONT GIVE HIM SPACE TO WORK WITH HIS TOOL...It's NOT THE ARM THAT DOES THE DAMAGE ITS THE WEIGHT BEHIND IT. Close down and control the weapon arm at the grapple range.

LOOK AT THE STATS...THERE ARE VERY FEW SINGLE WOUNDS ....I WAS STABBED SEVEN TIMES IN SECONDS...ONCE HE HAS BUILT THAT FRENZIED STATE, HE IS GONNA STAB, STAB, STAB: Training to deal with single thrusts or slashes is nonsensical.

YOU RUN AT ANY POINT YOU CAN. Nuff said.

I don't like trashing other instructors particularly but there may be a reason the systema guy he dealt with is not on Vladimir's affiliate page.

Kep points -
DISTANCE - yes, IF you see the knife. One of our drills involves a group, one of whom has the knife. Most people don't see the stab that gets them

SPACE - grabbing the arm is one possible tactic but does it stop him using his other arm? My own feeling is to shut the whole person down as quickly as possible by causing severe trauma. But this isn't a "one approach fits all" situation

STATS - maybe, but they all start with a single stab. If you haven't reacted at the that point then there's probably not much chance of stopping the rest. It's also well worth watching CCTV of knife assaults. Few involve one-on-one situations.

YOU CAN RUN - no you can't, not always. And if so, hope that you are faster and fitter than he is, cos now you have your back to him

He isn't the only one to have survived knife assault or have knife experience. TBH I've not seen much of STAB other than a short clip or two - a friend of mine trains with Karl I'll ask him about it

Re fear of the blade - the point about fear is not to let it control you. It isn't about being oblivious to the extreme danger it presents.

Kushirka - you could take this all up with Martin himself if you are in LA, I'm sure he'd be happy to accomodate all your questions

cheers

Rob