the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Andy_S wrote:
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that his well-honed system is on the cutting edge of his subject. If other posters take my point, I look forward to them backing my to the hilt on this.

It is a good clip no doubt but not cutting-edge if you look at what the Indonesians have been doing for...ever. I can only speak of William DeThour's Kuntao Silat but I guess one of their basics is on contact moving the opponent's weight onto the back foot and 'stuffing' the attack. Their method is more what I would call a xingyi-type where it's more straight-in with very tight angles, which we can assume is for a reason being what's behind and to the sides of the opponent. There's a saying about Indonesian knife fighting: how do you know it's effective? answer- the teacher has lived long enough to teach it.

I would call Tanswell's stuff more circular or like bagua, which I personally like better, but it begs the question of what is the surrounding situation and should the practice be altered, or I think both deal with the first and a possible knife in a second hand equally well but which one addresses the friends of the primary attacker who also have knives?
The answer is, in a sense, that xingyi takes the front ( of the opponent) and uses their back as a shield against the others, while bagua seeks to take the back of the opponent, and uses their front side as the shield, so we have 2 distinct options but in the Tanswell method if you do flank to the side you should always seek the back afterward.

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Here's a link to someone who has a real depth of understanding on this topic. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html#BJJ . All the points he makes are good ones, but especially lie #10 is relevant here I think.

Sage advice.

RE: Indonesian Knife Work
Personally, I think Tanswell's stuff is well in advance of what the Indonesians are doing for those of us who live in the Western world (rather than a tribal society where various knives are so common and rule of law is weak). I lived in Malaysia and met a lot of silat people, and I don't remember anyone saying anything as commonsensical as this:
"There is no out of contact work in our system because...."

Personally, I have found the reactive, drilling-based Philippino MA much more practical for weapons work than silat, which is forms- and technique-based, on the whole. (There again, I never trained with the Dyaks or Iban in Kalimantan, or the Bugis in the Celebes, who have actually used spears, machetes, knives, etc, in tribal warfare as recently as the late 1990s.)

RE: Article Sprint posted:
As for "don't grapple against a knife"
On the contrary, this, to me, is the most commonsensical point of what Tanswell teaches. His system is control (grapple) the knife hand at all costs. Even if the knife is actually IN YOUR BODY - keep it there, so he can't stab again. The reason I liked the first guy's clip is he also does this - he gets in and immediately controls the knife/knife hand.

BTW, from glancing at the material on Animal's site, I'd say his system would be massively more useful and realistic for the general public if he included Tanswell's advice ("No from-distance knife work...") as his Commandment No#1. This is the reason why IMHO Tanwell's work is tremendously important, and he makes that point very, very clearly in his class.

This clip has been posted on here before, check out 00:56




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"Charge a gun, run from a knife, you'll live longer."--Jimmy Hoffa

kshurika wrote:Andy_S:

Missed the second Tanswell link. No laughs (although his audience was howling). Scary. He knows his stuff. Why? 'Cause he got all stabbed up. The Mancunian accent is hard (and I lived in England). But, he's got some hard-earned wisdom. I wish I'd met him before I showed up in Varanasi.

Wow was that a "How to Die" seminar?

5 Easy Steps to get Killed Seminar?

Oh, let's not be so harsh, now. It was a "Let's all pretend we know how to defend against knives" seminar. It instills confidence and self-esteem.
Then, later you get killed.

The reason Systema coat-tail surfer doesn't or won't get it, is because he too is imbued with an abundance of over self-confidence, self-esteem and "success" earned from dedicated hours of this ridiculous ring around the rosy slow-mo knife work. Add to that his lack of aerobic conditioning (see love handles) and I totally understand why he pushes the "Stand and fight, cause you can't always run" approach. Perhaps, more road work and fewer 10 sec spurts of fanciful anaerobic nonsense could introduce a fresh perspective to his knife fighting strategy... or not

So in the spirit of Christmas, I'm going to give our S.C.T.S. (Systema Coat-tail surfer) a little gift:


Note that EVEN when cornered, Jim seeks to extricate himself from there at the first opportunity. Mr. Wagner is extremely well regarded in the LEO, D.T. community. His work doesn't look pretty but he gets folks home at the end of their shift. I also like Tanswell and Jim Grover's strategies much better than anything out there.

D Glenn:

No diss to Uncle, but the reason I don't like that clip much - but really DO like Tanswell's - is:
(1) Tanswell is not simply talking running, he is making a very forceful point about basic strategy - ie "There is no out of contact work." IMHO, this is far more profound than demonstrating running away.
(2) The "attacks" the guys deliver are as ridiculous as those in any MacDojo 101. Tanswell, OTOH, clearly shows how a knife attack in da streetz take place.

dtactics wrote:The reason Systema coat-tail surfer doesn't or won't get it,

Top marks for the Cute Little Acronym, no marks for wit or accuracy

Anyway here's a couple more clips - the first is a nice one on working close, the second is more the "distance" approach that IME is not how it goes down

Rob:

Yeah.

The Uncle Paul and Paul Vunak clips seem to represent EXACTLY what Tanswell is arguing against - ie long range attacks, either in a single slash or thrust (Uncle) or a long-range sparring type assault (Vunak). I suspect both these men are basing their knife work on Southeast Asian martial arts, rather than the kind of life threatening assault that actually occurs on Western (OK, UK) streets.

I assume that in either of the above (highly unlikely) scenarios, Tanswell would have been bolting rather than fighting - the knife is out of range, so extend the range and run! As he notes, what is far more dangerous (and more likely) is the assailant grabbing you and hammering multiple stabs in at very short range at very high speed.

To take the analogy empty handed: The difference is between training empty hand self defense against a punch by:
- Training to defend by having a guy stepping in from out of range with a single lunge punch in slo-mo and not following up (Uncle)
- Light sparring at a distance (Vunak)
- Having someone attack with a flurry of punches that are actually designed to hit you (Tanswell)

I found Tanswell's insight profound, I am not sure why other people either don't get it or are ignoring it. Of course, they may know better than yours truly, but I am not getting that sense from the conversation thus far.

Still, to each his own.

A friend's promient wing chun teacher in the UK actually taught him to take off his shoes, put them on his hands (for protection), and fight the fight attacker with his protected hands. There are some pretty wacky and down right dangerous ideas out there regarding weapons defense.

If you look at a video of a real knife attack there is never a 'one way' the attack happens:

Here's some real videos - lots of 'out of range' slashing here, and a few single cuts in this one:



Daniel Pollen (RIP). Single stab wound to the heart:





On another note, less depressing note, this Police office bloody impressed me - great reaction:

Andy_S wrote:RE: Systema Knife Def:

Here is Karl Tanswell on how (and why) he gate crashed a Systema seminar on knife self defense:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdb2hWNJF5U

starts 4:54

My tuppence' worth......Knife fighting and knife attacks etc, kill or be killed, is it possible to simulate real death ?. My technique is to try and stay awake as i move around the world, no one should ever get within striking distance. The sucker punch or stab is what will do in even the most skilled martial artist, just got to keep waking up every second to whats unfolding around you. This is really the difficult part of training. Pride is the enemy of it. Coffee finished.

Andy_S wrote:
RE: Article Sprint posted:
As for "don't grapple against a knife"
On the contrary, this, to me, is the most commonsensical point of what Tanswell teaches. His system is control (grapple) the knife hand at all costs. Even if the knife is actually IN YOUR BODY - keep it there, so he can't stab again. The reason I liked the first guy's clip is he also does this - he gets in and immediately controls the knife/knife hand.

BTW, from glancing at the material on Animal's site, I'd say his system would be massively more useful and realistic for the general public if he included Tanswell's advice ("No from-distance knife work...") as his Commandment No#1. This is the reason why IMHO Tanwell's work is tremendously important, and he makes that point very, very clearly in his class.

I think the point here is not "don't grapple against a knife" but if you grapple using techniques that work against an unarmed opponent you will die. I would advise another look at the site, because his approach is much more about how to keep safe. What he writes is realistic and extremely useful. Unfortunately a lot of would-be street fighters don't think his advice applies to them.