pounding mortar ????????

[bruce]

hi ya'all,

i have questions about the "pounding mortar" movement commonly seen in shaolin forms and chen forms... even bagua and hsing i...

what are some applications to the part of the movement where the back fist hits the palm?
see video for the part i am talking about.

[charles]

Bruce,

There are lots.

1. Most literal to the form: opponent punches, you sandwich the opponent's fist from below with the palm facing up, from above by smacking the top (back) of the opponent's hand with the knuckles of your clenched fist.

2. Backfist to the opponent's clavicle, dropping onto it like a hammer.

3. backfist to top of opponent's forearm - a point about three fingers' width below the elbow joint - or top of elbow joint or bridge of the nose, dropping onto any of them like a hammer.

4. Rake the knuckles of the fist down the opponent's breast bone... and others.

[bruce]

thanks for your comments. when i have time i will try to put up the clip of what we came up with but i was not impressed with what i was doing or my understanding of that specific move.

can you point me to anyones video showing usage of this move? specifically the part where the back fist hits the palm?

[Andy_S]

Bruce:

Like opening posture, I don't see this as a particularly combative move, more an energetic one, in the same way that in some of the kicks, you kick into your palm to give some resistance: the same with this, IMHO.

I am familiar with the possibilites Charles raises above, but (personally) discount them all. (Sandwiching a striking hand between palm and fist demands perfect timing; If you attack the clavicle, far better to do so with fingers as a pull down than with knuckles as a hit; direct backfist to bridge of the nose is a very different mechanic to that trained in this form and makes little sense from the stance; the last one I have never heard before but - although I confess never to have tried it - seems a very odd technique, to say the least.)

Another one that is commonly given is if someone grabs you by the belt of shirt, you support his hand in place with your palm and smash your knuckles onto his matacarpals. Possibly - and similar to the app #1 above - but I think there are better ways to respond so such as attack than with the given move. None of them involve standing square on.

The only real common sense application that I can see for it is as follows:
Knee him (the raised knee) in the groin:
As he jacknifes forward from your hit or moves his buttocks back to avoid the knee then you hit him on the back of the head with your downward fist.
He is now in perfect postion for the next, shearing move (you push down/around on his head and up/around on one his right arm, and spin him down)
And if you want to really tie him in a knot, then step through into lazily ties coat and take him down across your stance.
(Though you'd be damn lucky to pull off the entire combination above)

But still, it is not one of the most pratical moves. Better, I think, to concentrate on the preceding move and following move.

Pounding mortar is seen in a number of longfist forms too, but I have yet to see a decent usage of it in that art.

[GrahamB]

Hey Bruce,

The way you are doing it, with no footwork backwards (a la Chen) I personally think it makes most sense as a defence to a shirt grab - strike down on their grabbing arm with your fist, to take their balance, then go into a lock or throw. That's in Tim Cartmell's Chin Na translation book. So in this, the application is happening half way through the strike, not when it hits your palm at the bottom.

That application would actually work, rather than trying to grab somebody's punch which, let's be honest, is about as likely to happen as the US winning the 'soccer' world cup this year

In XY we do the movement with more footwork, and it makes more sense. It's a defence to a double-leg takedown.

G

[Adam S]

Have to disagree with your here Andy! (overall)

I think this is a great move!!!

the backfist to your opponents elbow I use often-not just in demo's

Can be a good knee to the groin

also a very nice smash into the side of your opponents knee as you as you bring your foot down-difficult to do in a live situation tho-unless your opponents very useless ......I've found at least

Couldn't grasp a couple of Charles apps but knowing him & his Shifu would love to see them Charles


PS Yes very good energetically, brings the qi down to the dan tien

[NoSword]

I am no Chen person but I have seen some Chen people demonstrate it as a wrist break -- having placed the hapless victim's wrist as close as possible to your center mass, you 'pound the mortar.'' Ouch.

[D_Glenn]

You guys need to think a little less about 'da' and a lot more about 'na', as in 'qin na'.

In standing practices hollow fists are usually used to develop the grabbing/ qin na and grip strength but in forms you go from open palms to tight fists in order to develop the grip.

In the beginning of this clip Chenyu shows a bunch of apps off 'pounding mortar':




.

[eightfist]

My teacher was more concerned with qin na as well when we did applications for pounding mortar. But we also went over the knee attacks and use for stomping on the opponent legs/knees/feet as well. He even showed a sudden rising uppercut as the first part of the move to the chin/throat, followed by knee to groin kinds of things. But I think it must also be mentioned that changing the stepping is always an option as well to keep up with an opponents movements.
My 2 cents

[Josealb]

The way we do it, the right hand reaches forward a bit, then rises as an uppercut, elbow point down, the slides on the inside if the left palm...it doesnt really pound.

Two examples would be to check with the left and go in with a knee and an upercut, way in, almost headbutt distance...that way when the knee goes down and scrapes or stomps, the forehead can bump.

The other one to grab/control the left wrist, slide the right hand under his arm and grab at the elbow, with the point of your own elbow applying pressure on his front shoulder/upper chest. Left hand pulls down and out, right hand pulls in and elbow prevents him from folding at the shoulder.....all done with a knee while going in.

[bruce]

You guys need to think a little less about 'da' and a lot more about 'na', as in 'qin na'.

In standing practices hollow fists are usually used to develop the grabbing/ qin na and grip strength but in forms you go from open palms to tight fists in order to develop the grip.

In the beginning of this clip Chenyu shows a bunch of apps off 'pounding mortar':




.

i love that video but chen yu in that video does not address the question i am presenting.

what specifically does one do with the back fist hitting the palm?

[bruce]

That application would actually work, rather than trying to grab somebody's punch which, let's be honest, is about as likely to happen as the US winning the 'soccer' world cup this year

G

hey man we have a great chance of winning the world cup! well as long as most of the other teams do not play

[bruce]

Bruce:

Like opening posture, I don't see this as a particularly combative move, more an energetic one, in the same way that in some of the kicks, you kick into your palm to give some resistance: the same with this, IMHO.



But still, it is not one of the most pratical moves. Better, I think, to concentrate on the preceding move and following move.

Pounding mortar is seen in a number of longfist forms too, but I have yet to see a decent usage of it in that art.

i agree. this is what i have basically come to... i just know there must be something i dont know about this movement that is practical self defense since it is a move seen in many cma styles.

[Bodywork]

Bruce:
1. Like opening posture, I don't see this as a particularly combative move, more an energetic one, in the same way that in some of the kicks, you kick into your palm to give some resistance: the same with this, IMHO.

2. I agree. this is what i have basically come to... i just know there must be something i dont know about this movement that is practical self defense since it is a move seen in many cma styles.

I think there is a whole other set of goals and requirements for "the moves" outside of everything we think we see having to be a practical fighting "move."
I can think of an entire descriptive analysis of what that move (although-sorry Bruce-not the "way" you are doing it) that would train your body, that could be applicable in a myriad of ways; to help in both strengthening it and stabilizing it against throw attempts, also to kick and hit with. Those are ways that are both real and whole for kicking ass, and that have not one thing to do with using "pounding morter" as some....."move."

I continue to find it odd that you can talk to MAers about conditioning; running, KB's, Indian clubs, etc, and no one asks how it's applicable-they understand conditioning. Talk to them about internal conditioning within a form that produces unusual strength and stability and they go on "tilt"...whhhaaat...whhh...aat? I think that says a lot about the way we have been taught or they way we think-where and how that actually meets and who's fault it may be...I can't really say either.
Oh well
Dan

[northern_mantis]

When I came across this within shaolin forms I think from what I can remember it first appears in Lian Huan Quan-Continuous Circle Boxing? (though my memory isn't what it used to be).

The teacher at the time went to shaolin every year so I always got the official party line on applications. The stamp I was told was to send up the qi, where it went up and what it did when it got there I couldn't tell you, presumably to be utilised on the following technique.

This is my first post, hi to everyone!