Chen Ziqiang forms and tuishou

[cloudz]

I don't mean to be an arse to folks, but some things wind me up.. Allen is a nice enough guy, and I did mean that last comment in a friendly way rather than a malicious one.

those aiki folks I think have confused the issue for those doing CIMA, and that's why i get a bit peeved. All their descriptions are actually to do with Wei gong ironically enough. "nei" having to do with the mind, nervous system and bones (marrow). Wei having to do with musculature, tendons, ligaments, faschia. hence we have both nei gong and wei gong and exercises that cross the bounderies of course.

If you study the descriptions the aiki people write they are moslty about weigong eg. faschia. And the people that don't lap up their panacea - simply don't understand the work or don't have a clue about "internal".

Sorry, had to get it off me chest. thanks for posting the clip ors - very good demo of Shuai fa . sorry to de rail your thread a bit.

[ors]

Nothing happened cloudz.

[WVMark]

I don't mean to be an arse to folks, but some things wind me up.. Allen is a nice enough guy, and I did mean that last comment in a friendly way rather than a malicious one.

those aiki folks I think have confused the issue for those doing CIMA, and that's why i get a bit peeved. All their descriptions are actually to do with Wei gong ironically enough. "nei" having to do with the mind, nervous system and bones (marrow). Wei having to do with musculature, tendons, ligaments, faschia. hence we have both nei gong and wei gong and exercises that cross the bounderies of course.

If you study the descriptions the aiki people write they are moslty about weigong eg. faschia. And the people that don't lap up their panacea - simply don't understand the work or don't have a clue about "internal".

Sorry, had to get it off me chest. thanks for posting the clip ors - very good demo of Shuai fa . sorry to de rail your thread a bit.

I don't think those aiki folks are the confused ones. If you think it's all about "Wei gong" and doesn't include "nei gong", you should get some hands on time with someone who has the skill. The clarifications are evident quite quickly.

As for "internal", I think Allan's post sums it up very well.

Interesting but i don't see him using the opponents force there, it looks like good shuai jiao...but then why no just learn good shuai jiao?
Before anyone starts off on me...compare clips of Liu chengde etc doing tuishou, there is a very distinct difference.

The people I know that have actual internal skills don't move like other people, no matter what age they are. Again, we aren't talking about fighting. And we aren't talking about "making use of the opponent's force" because you can do that externally and internally. You can do that to a very high degree either way. It isn't about which way kicks butt. Someone can do that with either: external or internal.

But, if you want opinions about internal (We are, after all, on the RSF: Internal Martial Arts Forum), don't get upset when videos are posted of high level teachers and some people go, nah, that's not what I'd consider internal. That doesn't make the high level teacher any less skillful in what he/she is doing. It just isn't internal.

[Doc Stier]

The following excerpt is from Aikido from the Inside Out by Howard Bornstein

"If you engage your partner in the energetic realm, you will have a much easier time of it. In a physical struggle, all other things being equal, the stronger person will prevail. However, in the world of ki, physical strength means little. You are moving your partner's energy body, not the physical one. The energy body is often equated with mind, intent or ki. That is, to affect your partner's energy body, you affect his mind, his intent or his ki.

There is a relationship between the physical and energetic. The physical follows the energetic. In other words, if you affect your partner's energy field, the body will move easily. If you lead the mind or ki of your partner, the body tags along like an obedient puppy."

http://www.designeq.com/deq/aikido/insideout/ki.html

[cloudz]

Mark- the problem is you seem to have quite an arbitrary distinction of what is "internal" and what is "external".

I simply see it as power and skill. Just because someone has a certain skill set, doesn't make it "internal". All you are describinng in my opinion is a sophistaicated / refined level of skill - combined with power of course.

No one really needs the whole internal/ external distinction to understand or even train any of it. It's always the same every time - people assume you havn't trained with skilled people.

It's assanine. you don't even realise that's not the angle I'm coming from.. It's your use (lack of any meaningful concrete definition) and hype of "internal", and now it seems Chen Ziqiang doesn't have the requisite skill set and power to qualify in your mind, or Allens or whomevers..

It's bollocks really. There are just expressions of martial power and skill and levels of refinement and control - and there are many, having two definitive categories like you want to have doesn't work and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There is always a level of neigung (internal work) involved in skill and controlling power.

Dividing power or strength into two proto types is a waste of time in my opinion. But hey, it's a free world.

The only rebuttal you guys seems to have is strawmen and ad hominem attacks - you attack the person. In other words you use any number of variations of. You don't know 'it'. You need to feel someone like so and so. etc etc.

If you think it's all about "Wei gong" and doesn't include "nei gong", you should get some hands on time with someone who has the skill.

So you agree with me that it is (can only be) a combination . Great!

Though I would prefer 'a confluence', sounds nicer.

It just isn't internal.

Whatever.. All you ever end up doing is defining a high level of skill and refinent in movement and power control.

I don't define internal and external like that. I use a different approach, one that I think is more honest, more practical, and closer to the root, as well as the truth..

[cloudz]

Interesting way to make the distinction between weigong and neigong. Any references/sources for this?

I'll get back to you on this Tom, have to find a link for you.

I do agree that certain exercises "cross the boundaries." I tend to think of a weigong to neigong continuum/spectrum, rather than an absolute "either/or" distinction. I don't see the "aiki folks" (whoever that motley crew may be) as referring entirely to weigong. Intent and mind are very much a part of the "aiki folks'" discussion, as far as I can tell.

I don't disagree Tom. It is part of the discussion - the only bit that really qualifies as internal. Why that doesn't reflect in what I would say is a rational manner throughout most of the rest of the diologue is anyones guess.

Marks and Allens replies here for starters. Why is it either or "internal" or "external" for them. and for others it is a continuum everyone is on to varying degrees more or less - using and accessing both. Like you and I have more or less described ?

Where exactly is the line in the sand that delianates an "external" to "internal" martial artist beyond the basic definitions of mental and physical ?

[ors]

Hi!

Here is an other one:



Örs

[Andy_S]

Ors:

More good stuff by ZQ. Here's hoping that seminar in Berlin sells out.

This could the start of something.

AFAIK, the first generation to leave the village (Chen XW, Chen ZL, etc) very, very rarely teach this material. In their seminar tours they conentrated almost exclusively on forms; their PH is largely restricted to the set forms of PH, and some qinna thereof.

OTOH, the younger generation have actively competed in tuisau tourneys in the village, Wenxian and elsewhere. Bing, Ziqiang and Zijun are perfectly happy to demo or teach this material. It is not a secret, nor is it an 'advanced method' that you can only learn after you have five or 10 years of forms training under your belt.

The more interest people show in this material, the more it is going to be taught. If people are happy to do/learn endless forms, that is what they will keep receiving. If the teachers see more interest in the combative side of the art, that, too, will be disseminated.

Don't ask...don't get!