Chen Ziqiang forms and tuishou

[ors]

Forms:

Tuishou:


OK the tuishou is more likely chenstyle "shuai fa"...

Örs

[kshurika]

Gosh, hate to be mean here, but I have just a few brief observations: First, couldn't Master Chen be shown doing the complete form? Second, why shoot him at a bad angle in a mirror, showing his rapt audience sitting on its collective ass?

Finally, that music.............. are you kidding? I mean, really, ARE YOU KIDDING??????!!!!!!


Gosh, I guess I did intend to be mean.

[ors]

Kshurika!

Sorry, but these vids are not mine... Just found them on youtube.

Örs

[kshurika]

Wellllllllllllllllll...................................okay............................ I guess I'll forgive you.




But just this one time.



I do have a general question though. What is up with the f**ked up music that people attach to IMA videos?

[oskar]

Yeah, i had to turn off the volume with the first clip, horrible!!

I like his throws and that he seem to have more fighting attitude to his taiji than the previous generation of the village taiji guys...

[kshurika]

I've never studied with him. I was looking forward to it, but the last time he was due to come here, he was denied a visa. (?)

From what I hear, he's the fightingest of the family.

[AllanF]

Interesting but i don't see him using the opponents force there, it looks like good shuai jiao...but then why no just learn good shuai jiao?
Before anyone starts off on me...compare clips of Liu chengde etc doing tuishou, there is a very distinct difference.

[Andy_S]

KShurika, I was in the village when he was denied his US visa. (Which suited me, as he did not leave).

The forms he is showing there are ad libbed. Also, he seems to have created his own, pao-choish form, which he is totally entitled to do. There is a clips up of the Berlin boys doing it.

I am not a huge fan of his forms, which differ considerably from his fathers (though I was awed by his double sword and his xinjia paochoi) but Ziqiang is a real young master of shuai PH. Here he is being very gentle...and the guys he is with are being very tentativel they are not really sparring him.

At home in the village, he will go as soft or as hard as you like, he is good enough to calibrate his force. I asked him for a shoulder strike demo: He gave me a gentle one - no big deal; then a hard one. I flew about 15 feet, landed on my arse, and declined his kind offer of a third. And I vividly recall Andy (a big, bald Aussie bouncer) who probably outweighed Ziqiang by close to 100 lbs, being toyed with. ZQ loves having big boys to spar, you can see him smiling in action. And unlike many Taiji people, he says "Come at me with anything" not restricted just to grappling.

Allan:

This is the stuff used most commonly in the village when they talk about 'fighting.' From my observations, the set forms of PH, done at arms length, are really just a preliminary for this; most of the trainees in the village are pretty young, late teens and early 20s. Ad libs of the set forms (as shown so nicely by Liu Chengde) are not so common.

RE: 'Why not just learn shuiajiao?'

Fair comment, but I think good Taiji in action IS largely shuiajiao (which is an art per se, as well as being a subset of other MA). Taiji is full of throws, projections and takedowns, so is a shuai-based art; much of that is obvious from the stances. The stand-up wrist and elbow locks you see so commonly in set or cooperative PH are very, very difficult to pull off in actual combat, as witness their minimal use in either PH matches, or NHB. Throws, OTOH, are commonly used in most fighting arts. (IMHO, some Taiji masters, esp in Chen, concentrate too much on locking the wrist and elbow, just as some non_Chen masters do way too much "pushing.")

RE: Liu Chengde
Zigiang is about one third Liu's age...clearly, right not, he is going through a very physical, fighting stage of his Taiji (and one thing the clips dont's show are what excellent shape he is in). Perhaps, when he is in his 70s and he has this kind of experience under his belt, he will be less physical, like Liu.

Frankly, I dont think that it is possible to get good at combative MA without going through this stage. What is being shown here may NOT be the highest level of the art - but if it is not, don't say that so to Judoka or an SC chap,as good body throws are the acme of their arts! Still, regardless of whether it is or is not, I think it is DEFINITELY a step on the way to mastery of Taiji as this is the perfect range to do Taiji at.

(I should add that if I were a fluent at throwing in 20 years time as ZQ is now, I'd be happy.)

[cdobe]

Interesting but i don't see him using the opponents force there, it looks like good shuai jiao...but then why no just learn good shuai jiao?
Before anyone starts off on me...compare clips of Liu chengde etc doing tuishou, there is a very distinct difference.

I've noticed, that he uses a lot of movements where he bends forward, but I have never seen any Chen stylist training this body method in any of the form variations. In Wu style we do practice it in the White Crane Spreads Wings posture.

[Adam S]

the last time he was due to come here, he was denied a visa. (?)

From what I hear, he's the fightingest of the family.

Looks like he's going to Berlin soon so maybe his Visa situation is different now-one can hope



Well the 'fightingest' of the village guys lets say

[Adam S]

the stand-up wrist and elbow locks you see so commonly in set or cooperative PH are very, very difficult to pull off in actual combat

Andy I dont strongly disagree with you but it's possible that CY & MH as well as others may have seen CZK pull them off in actual combat or in ways they felt could be used in combat & hence still emphasis them (?)

[cloudz]

Interesting but i don't see him using the opponents force there, it looks like good shuai jiao...but then why no just learn good shuai jiao?
Before anyone starts off on me...compare clips of Liu chengde etc doing tuishou, there is a very distinct difference.

I don't think it's that interesting. he's just demonstrating off mostly static positions, so he kind of induces the movement. Nothing really wrong with that. He's just demonstration/ teaching techniques. I don't think he purposely means to divorce them from standard taiji methodology which seeks to follow and borrow as much as is practically available over forcing a certain outcome willfully.

If you watch him in other instances where he is engaged in freepushing or applying his stuff from tui shou patterns he does make use of the opponents force from what I remember/ can tell..

Also the implication that Chinese wrestling doesn't make any use of borrowing force is silly.

[middleway]

looks like a powerful guy.

What i will say however is that the students are entirely lacking in any mobility, rather looking to consistently maintain their static position, while the teacher is breaking that idea in order to effect his throws/ take downs. The students are trying to root against the forces and the stepping from the teacher defeats it.

IME you either both stand rooted with no footwork, or you both use footwork. This seems to be teacher allowed footwork, student rooted to the spot. Maybe i am not seeing it right (which is prob the case )

Thanks for the vids

Chris

[cloudz]

Maybe it's just me, but I make allowances for when people are receiving instruction - the things you are pointing out Chris arn't all that relevent to the process just yet. But they certainly will be when they get to freeplay.

Often when 'we' even practice a tech to learn it better/ get better at it our partner will (or should) make some allowances, rather than take the opportunity to stuff it in different ways at every turn. There's a place for that too mind you, but these are steps in a process - (or should be) in my opinion..

I'll make the allowance that we are seeing a fairly basic first steps in his teaching process - learning some techniques. It seems pretty fair to say he's a big fan of freeplay, and that these folks would have had a chance to do that too.

[middleway]

i agree George, I think in Ap learning there is definite scope for everything you say.

Its just the clip was named 'Push Hands - TuiShou' I guess that threw me cause they didnt seem to be playing the same game.

Cheers
Chris