The Russians are coming.

[grzegorz]

Daj,

You seem to have an axe to grind with me. It's cool, I can argue with the best of them and still let it go. I have nothing against you but we will never agree on this one. Out of respect I will clarify my last post.

My point is no one has been able to produce any clear evidence that the nazis were behind the protests yet I can prove that Klitscho, who is now mayor of Kiev was, that's verified.

As far as Ferguson we now have a clear report that verified a racial bias this what we need in Ukraine to show a true nazi connection.

Yes, I'm aware of the nazi-Ukrainian connection, but one should keep in mind that the Italians, Hungarians, Slovakians, Romanians, and many Arab countries sided with the nazis.

[Dajenarit]

I don't have an axe to grind with you Greg. The fact that you believe that is just another in a long list of things that you're not getting. This isn't just a disagreement of opinions. You just plain got your fact wrong.

So the Klitscho's were behind the Ukranian coup? Thats verified?

You've been given official reports about the racial bias of these Neo-nazi groups allowed to operate in the Ukrainian government, who funded them and who really has the most to gain from said coup. Thats verified. To say that the claim was made that all the protestors were neo-nazis is a strawman argument.

And no one is talking about WW2 Greg....

Whatever man. Enjoy your thread

[grzegorz]

Klitscho played a big role in the protests as you already know.

Also multi-party systems of government give a certain amount of funding to all parties. We've already discussed that the two far right parties only received a very small percentage of the vote thus showing that the Ukrainian is not a nation of nazi white racists.

As a minority myself I know all about racism, real racism and I don't see how labelling every Ukrainian as an anti-Slav nazi when they themselves are Slavs is constructive in anyway.

Perhaps someday you will visit the Ukraine and get to be pleasantly surprised with open those people can be. Perfect? No, but definitely not a nazi facist state. They're just people trying to get by like most of the world but with unemployment at fifty percent this was to be expected once Yanukovych turned away from strenghening ties with the EU as he promised.

Until I'm proven wrong I'll continue to defend Ukraine.

Also WWII has been discussed several times in this thread and is being used in Putin's rhetoric.

[grzegorz]

I believe this is probably a relatively accurate picture of the situation.

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30414955

Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict

By David SternBBC News, Kiev

13 December 2014

 From the sectionEurope

The Azov volunteer battalion is run by an extremist group and sports a modified neo-Nazi Wolf's Hook

Ever since Ukraine's February revolution, the Kremlin has characterised the new leaders in Kiev as a "fascist junta" made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites, set on persecuting, if not eradicating, the Russian-speaking population.

This is demonstrably false. Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% barrier to enter parliament, although if they had banded together, and not split their vote, they would have probably slipped past the threshold.

Only one government minister has links to nationalist parties - though he is in no way a neo-Nazi or fascist. And the speaker of parliament, Volodymyr Groysman, is Jewish. He has the third most powerful position in the country after the president and prime minister.

But Ukrainian officials and many in the media err to the other extreme. They claim that Ukrainian politics are completely fascist-free. This, too, is plain wrong.

As a result, the question of the presence of the far-right in Ukraine remains a highly sensitive issue, one which top officials and the media shy away from. No-one wants to provide fuel to the Russian propaganda machine.

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Mr Poroshenko (R) was pictured on his website clasping Serhiy Korotkykh on the shoulder

But this blanket denial also has its dangers, since it allows the ultra-nationalists to fly under the radar. Many Ukrainians are unaware that they exist, or even what a neo-Nazi or fascist actually is, or what they stand for.

Controversial 'patriot'

This hyper-sensitivity and stonewalling were on full display after President Petro Poroshenko presented a Ukrainian passport to someone who, according to human rights activists, is a "Belarusian neo-Nazi".

The Ukrainian leader handed out medals on 5 December to fighters who had tenaciously defended the main airport in the eastern region of Donetsk from being taken over by Russian-backed separatists.

Among the recipients was Serhiy Korotkykh, a Belarusian national, to whom Mr Poroshenko awarded Ukrainian citizenship, praising his "courageous and selfless service".

The president's website showed a photo of Mr Poroshenko patting the shoulder of the Belarusian, who was clad in military fatigues.

Serhiy Korotkykh was among the fighters surrounded inside the wreck of Donetsk airport terminal

Experts who follow the far right have strongly objected to President Poroshenko's decision.

They say Mr Korotkykh was a member of the far-right Russian National Unity party and also a founding member of the neo-Nazi National Socialist Society (NSS) in Russia.

According to Ukrainian academic Anton Shekhovtsov, the NSS's main goal "is to prepare for a race war".

Mr Shekhovtsov said the Belarusian had been charged for involvement in a bombing in central Moscow in 2007, and was detained in 2013 in the Belarusian capital Minsk for allegedly stabbing an anti-fascist activist. He was later released for lack of evidence.

Even though the details involved accusations rather than facts, if true they were damning, said human rights activist Halya Coynash.

Top Ukrainian officials then rejected as defamatory any claims that Mr Korotkykh had neo-Nazi ties.

"Counter-intelligence has no information that could prevent him from receiving Ukrainian citizenship," said Valentyn Nalyvaychenko, the head of Ukraine's security services.

Nevertheless, the fact is, neo-Nazis are indeed a fixture in Ukraine's new political landscape, albeit in small numbers.

Azov Battalion

As Mr Korotkykh's case demonstrates, the ultra-nationalists have proven to be effective and dedicated fighters in the brutal war in the east against Russian-backed separatists and Russian forces, whose numbers also include a large contingent from Russia's far right.

As a result, they have achieved a level of acceptance, even though most Ukrainians are unfamiliar with their actual beliefs.

The volunteer Azov Battalion is a case in point.

The Azov battalion seems to enjoy the support of several top officials

Run by the extremist Patriot of Ukraine organisation, which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbolson its insignia: a modified Wolf's Hook, a black sun (or "Hakensonne") and the title Black Corps, which was used by the Waffen SS.

Azov is just one of more than 50 volunteer groups fighting in the east, the vast majority of which are not extremist, yet it seems to enjoy special backing from some top officials:

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov and his deputy Anton Gerashchenko actively supported the parliament candidacy of Andriy Biletsky, the Azov and Patriot of Ukraine commanderVadim Troyan, another top Azov official and Patriot of Ukraine member, was recently named police chief for the Kiev regionMr Korotkykh is also an Azov member

Ukraine's media have been noticeably silent on this subject.

Recently, prominent newspaper and online publication Left Bank published an extensive interview with Mr Troyan, in which the journalists asked no questions at all about his neo-Nazi past or political views.

And after the Unian news agency reported the presidential ceremony under the headline, "Poroshenko awarded Belarusian neo-Nazi with Ukrainian passport", it was soon replaced with an article that air-brushed out the accusations of extremism.

Unian's editors have declined to comment on the two pieces.

There are significant risks to this silence. Experts say the Azov Battalion, which has been widely reported on in the West, has damaged Ukraine's image and bolsters Russia's information campaign.

And although Ukraine is emphatically not run by fascists, far-right extremists seem to be making inroads by other means, as in the country's police department.

Ukraine's public is grossly under-informed about this. The question is, why doesn't anyone want to tell them?

[Azer]

BBC: 'And although Ukraine is emphatically not run by fascists'

Pretty nazi from where I'm standing. As is the attempted extermination of 5 million former citizens with heavy and banned weaponry and deliberate cut of of essential services (water, energy, medicine, etc) to these 5 million people. As is the creation of a UA 'Ministry of Truth' and banning all non gov approved news provider, including all Russia broadcasts.

Some more mention about these issues here, including the nazi tendencies of other NATO members, something I previously mentioned and linked on this thread.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... ay-for-war

However, I must say, the presstitute has been a bit better past few months, I've even seen BBC reporters behind rebel lines interviewing the civilians Porky bombs, previously something completely ignored and denied for close to year, despite ample footage and reports from the ground.

[Azer]

Perhaps someday you will visit the Ukraine and get to be pleasantly surprised with open those people can be. Perfect? No, but definitely not a nazi facist state. They're just people trying to get by like most of the world but with unemployment at fifty percent this was to be expected once Yanukovych turned away from strenghening ties with the EU as he promised.

Hahahaha! You don't seriously believe this bollocks!?!

The UA economy was majorly dependent on Russia trade, something close to 80% of their trade was with Russia, their biggest trade partner. Including around USD 90 billion investment from Russia since the 90's and billions more in heavily subsidised energy prices as well as support for agricultural and heavy industry.

Why would anyone in their right mind sign an agreement (EU Association Agreement) which would potentially destroy or at the very least seriously endanger their economy? The answer is they wouldn't, which makes perfect logical sense. Hence Yanukovich had to go, he was not traitorous enough to destroy the Ukrainian economy for Uncle Sam and his poodles.

There are of course the numerous destructive policies of the EU Association Agreement and related IMF loans i.e. nonsense like raising energy prices in line with the EU, meanwhile the state of the economy would put basic energy needs out of reach of most citizens.

And the result is... Ukraine's economy is completely destroyed, and if it does ever begin to recover, then it will likely end up looking like the multiple former soviet states that have joined the EU. States which have had their industry gutted, anything competitive with EU companies has been taken over, result being massive youth unemployment, stolen or destroyed industrial base, resulting in large asset strip for the aspiring/new members and massive migration to the EU of cheap labor. Can you guess who are the loosers and winners in this? Its really pretty fucking basic.

[Michael]

Azer, Azer, Azer....

Putin.

I win.

[Azer]

lol... Ok,ok.. I give up

[wiesiek]

..."And the result is... Ukraine's economy is completely destroyed,.."
maybe
I shoudn`t, `cause Azer say >mate<
but
worth to note that Ukraine`s economy NEVER STARTED ./until today /
It was the USSR in the 1st place,
2nd something like dependend kingdom with Barons.
so
now, they trying to build it, from really deep shit, no easy task, when Putin is diggin` for the sake of "BIG Russia "
Stupid move, Wladimir!
Really Big Russia can be only close connected with EU -future member ?

[Azer]

..."And the result is... Ukraine's economy is completely destroyed,.."
maybe
I shoudn`t, `cause Azer say >mate<
but
worth to note that Ukraine`s economy NEVER STARTED ./until today /
It was the USSR in the 1st place,
2nd something like dependend kingdom with Barons.
so
now, they trying to build it, from really deep shit, no easy task, when Putin is diggin` for the sake of "BIG Russia "
Stupid move, Wladimir!
Really Big Russia can be only close connected with EU -future member ?

I don't really get half of what you say Wiesiek. Your English is not very good, and consequently you don't or cant explain yourself. Nothing personal, but that is the reality of the situation.

In regard to the baron comment, which I think I understand your general idea, as I mentioned before, Ukraine had started of on the 90's with zero national debt. That is an extremely advantageous position, especially combined with all the soviet infrastructure that Ukraine basically got for free, vast developed farming lands and vast amount of heavy industry. What ensued in this new found freedom is massive theft, graft, corruption and election of one corrupt oligarch after another, and guess what its still the same today.

Ukrainians can blame Putin and Russia if they like, but that is just weak and idiotic. Ukraine started it of with a clean slate and instead of making something of it, they shat all over themselves and are now pointing fingers because they cant face up to the fact that they are stupid enough to keep repeating the same oligarch mistake over and over again. US/EU and their debt based economic models are hardly helpful in such cases as has been seen with the PIGS countries, Ukraine is in an even worse position.

[grzegorz]

I love how most Russians blame everything on the oligarchs, the EU and the US but would jump at the chance to be one or live there the first chance they get.

Az,

At one time all of Eastern Europe was in the toilet no thanks to the Soviets. I saw it for myself firsthand in 1990, I'm sure you remember those days. Yet try to buy an apartment in Prague and Budapest today and forget about it!

..."And the result is... Ukraine's economy is completely destroyed,.."
maybe
I shoudn`t, `cause Azer say >mate<
but
worth to note that Ukraine`s economy NEVER STARTED ./until today /
It was the USSR in the 1st place,
2nd something like dependend kingdom with Barons.
so
now, they trying to build it, from really deep shit, no easy task, when Putin is diggin` for the sake of "BIG Russia "
Stupid move, Wladimir!
Really Big Russia can be only close connected with EU -future member ?

I can understand everything W is saying.

His point is Ukraine's independent economy has never had a chance. While they should be getting things off the ground Putin is trying to save them from imaginary nazi fairies. (In my country we call people terrorists to justify any war with them.)

In a perfect world the Ukraine would have an economic relationship with the EU and the Russians but Putin pissed in the wind and now his people are paying the price.

I'm doing my share to help Ukraine by buying Ukrainian vodka whenever I can. The way I drink it shouldn't be long now...

[Dajenarit]

At this point Greg I just think you want this thread to make it to 100 pages you sly devil you. You got us. Good show.

[grzegorz]

BBC: 'And although Ukraine is emphatically not run by fascists'

.

He got through that sentence without one "Kurva?" He's definitely not like the Ukrainians I know.

I prefer Nikita Khrushchev's, "We will bury you!" He was the master of empty threats, Americans are still talking about that day.

By the way, ISIS is claiming that they will burn Europe to the ground so you might want to re-locate. I can't imagine how much a loaf of bread will cost once that happens.

At this point Greg I just think you want this thread to make it to 100 pages you sly devil you. You got us. Good show.

Almost there.

[wiesiek]

helping reach the 100 with my poor chinglish ,

what is hard so hard to understand, Azer?
That Ukraine was part of the shitty communist system ?
or ,
that later was taken by oligarch mostly grown from old KGB?
and
now
that, they are in the state of the regular war,
while Putin and rest of the "Big Guys" play the "political games".?
WE /still free word , and the Putin/
- was guarantee for freedom of the Ukraine - THEN they /the Ukrainians/ agree to give up their nuclear warheads...

still do not understand?
so
How old was you , when you change from Red to White , and learned British English ?
or
maybe you get it good already before movin` , If I may ask?

[grzegorz]

All things being equal the people who claim that the Ukrainians are Nazis are the same people saying that Russia has no involvement in the war, which is disingenuous and why some of us are extremely skeptical that we're witnessing the rise of the fourth reich.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-ambas ... us/5433051