Movies and fantasy

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Movies and fantasy

Postby KEND on Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:33 am

The new Dragon movie is bound to create controversy over whether Bruce Lee could actually fight. The only recorded fight with Jackman Wong[who himself was not recorded as fighting before] and that was behind closed doors. We have heard many stories from the past about the Yang family, masters in Hong Kong, underground fighters but how many are true. I loved the Bruce Lee movies, as I loved the Jet Li, Jacky Chan, Seagal, van Damme, Statham etc movies but I have no idea how they would fare against an MMA fighter. The Thai boxers exploded many myths in the 70's in Hong Kong. At least I know that Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Sonny Chiba, Lenny McLean and others actually fought
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:13 am

Yesterday after reading about that new Dragon movie her on RSF and watching the movie trailer, I wanted to look up about Jakman Wong, could only find some info on Wikipedia, and there seem to be two sides of the story about that fight. Don't know much about Bruce Lee either, except from his movie stardom he did some sort of fight exhibitions at Karate tournaments, but did he actually enter and competed in such tournaments ? Seems that he was heavily promoted as a fighter.
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby KEND on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:23 am

As far as I know he never took part in competition. There are stories of him demonstrating on the film set but could have been put out by his showbiz friends. It is difficult to say whether he or any of the CMA stars could actually fight well, Donnie had a traditional upbringing in MA my guess is that he can take care of himself. Due to BL Wing Chun became a major MA, the lineage came down mainly from Leung Jan who was a constable and obviously knew how to fight, Yip Man's top student who was strong and capable took care of challenges but until BL's emergence it was just another Southern style MA, along with Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut etc. Movies have created a world which puts WC on top of the heap besting all comers
I believe there was an article on Jackman Wong in IKF or Black Belt some while ago
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:55 am

Well, BL was respected by the fighters of his time. However, there's no doubt that his effect on martial arts was/is enormous. Shucks, he was the reason "Kung Fu" made it to tv. Most people in the US had never heard of the Shaolin temple before that.
Here's B. Urquidez on him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bWspgQE7wg

I think one has to look at BL in the context of the times. The Wong story was interesting for two reasons. One: it centered around BL teaching non-Chinese, and two, because it was claimed that Wong was Lee's equal or better. The reality is that BL continued to teach non-Chinese; but, we can't really know about the fight.

In NYC, there were also conflicts around who could teach whom that were settled by fights. The most well-known(afaik) happened between representatives of Fujow pai Tiger claw. This was in the early 70s. But, everybody had become familiar with "kung fu" because of Kato in the Green Hornet, or Kato in "The Pink Panther" or via some medium connected to BL.

Now, afa the upcoming movie, just keep repeating "It's only a movie; it's only a movie; it's only a movie."
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:58 am

KEND wrote:As far as I know he never took part in competition. There are stories of him demonstrating on the film set but could have been put out by his showbiz friends. It is difficult to say whether he or any of the CMA stars could actually fight well, Donnie had a traditional upbringing in MA my guess is that he can take care of himself. Due to BL Wing Chun became a major MA, the lineage came down mainly from Leung Jan who was a constable and obviously knew how to fight, Yip Man's top student who was strong and capable took care of challenges but until BL's emergence it was just another Southern style MA, along with Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut etc. Movies have created a world which puts WC on top of the heap besting all comers
I believe there was an article on Jackman Wong in IKF or Black Belt some while ago

Going by memory of what I read, the only regulation competition Bruce had was beating the champion boxer at his high school in Hong Kong. As far as fights, Bruce had rooftop fights in his teens, beat Yoichi Nakachi (karate) at a YMCA handball court in Seattle, fought Wong Jack Man and beat an extra on the set of Enter the Dragon.

Bruce taught movie actors (e.g., James Coburn, Steve McQueen) and karate champions (Mike Stone, Joe Lewis). Per Joe Lewis, Bruce had physical skills. But, they never sparred each other. They only did drills.

KEND wrote:The new Dragon movie is bound to create controversy over whether Bruce Lee could actually fight.
IMO, if Bruce Lee entered a karate tournament during that time, the champions would beat him for the fact of the rules. Also IMO, Bruce would lose to the current MMA champion in his weight class in and out of the ring. It may be different if Bruce had years of experience in those venues.

Because, Bruce was in a different profession (acting, making movies vs sport). At the time, Bruce's focus was to become richer than Steve McQueen and become a superstar movie actor not a tournament fighter. As Bruce became more famous, there was motivation for him not to fight; he could be sued or lose his reputation if he lost.

Bruce believed a fight should last a few seconds. His method was to stop kick to the knee with the front leg, finger jab to the eyes, and trap if necessary. Bruce's notes in his book, The Tao of Jeet Kune Do, showed he had a good knowledge of fighting for his time. IMO by watching Bruce's sparring at the 1967 Nationals he showed excellent fighting ability. Bruce showed timing, deception, effective trapping, broken rhythm, control of distance, power, speed, etc. in sparring not in a "demonstration only," although it was just his students.

Having said all that IMO, it is not important if Bruce was not the best fighter of his time. It is more important that he was a cultural icon that brought kung fu to the mainstream. He made the Chinese people proud, especially in the countries where racism was present. He got people interested in the martial arts and physical fitness. He was a role model for some people in and out of the martial arts.

Steve James wrote:I think one has to look at BL in the context of the times. The Wong story was interesting for two reasons. One: it centered around BL teaching non-Chinese, and two, because it was claimed that Wong was Lee's equal or better. The reality is that BL continued to teach non-Chinese; but, we can't really know about the fight.

I believe this is a myth. Lau Bun is considered the pioneer of kung fu in San Francisco Chinatown having established the Wah-Keung Kung Fu Club of Choy Li Fut in the 1930s (accounts vary). Lau Bun and TY Wong were teaching kung fu to non-chinese, including Al Novak (caucasian) in 1960 Noel O’Brien, an Irish teenager, a few years later, a Hawaiian named Clifford Kamaga and others.

Following are a few videos of people speaking on Bruce's fighting ability.

Published on Feb 18, 2017
Ed Hart talks candidly about his friend and Kung Fu teacher, Bruce Lee.
Subscribe to our page to see more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23eiM_pGsEs

Joe Lewis interview.

Published on Nov 21, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdG577px94

Published on Jun 25, 2013
James DeMile, one of Bruce Lee's original students, talks about how they fought and trained. Did he ever try and knock Bruce Lee out? Was Bruce Lee the finest street fighter he ever met? And much more:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Yf-Cpvvucs

Starting @ 41:39, Victor Moore, demonstratee, at the Long Beach Tournament in 1967.

Published on Aug 17, 2015
GrandMaster Victor Moore: Episode 20

"So he got ready to walk away. I said wait a minute – hold it Bruce. Let me show you how it’s done:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WE4XPdw0GA
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:32 pm

BL was not the first to teach non-Chinese. There was no doubt then, as now, that there were Chinese who resented it and him. You remember Ed Parker, who even now people say had no real creds. But, this type of resentment towards success is typical. At the time, let's not forget that there was a lot of competition among schools and for students.

Afa how BL would do today. That's like asking how Babe Ruth would do in modern baseball. Though, I do agree that BL's abilities have become legendary to the point where it's a sin to suggest that anyone could beat him. At 140-50 lbs., it is a stretch to argue that he'd be heavyweight champ. People resent that too. Otoh, it's not much different from suggesting that someone (then or now) could beat Yang Luchan. ;)
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Peacedog on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:17 pm

Many stories abound about Gene LeBell choking out Bruce Lee. He also apparently did this to Steven Seagall as well.

Apparently Lee started studying grappling after that. I've heard stories about Lee fighting with extras after being challenged during filming on set in Hong Kong, but again how much of this is just storytelling at this point no one knows.

Many stories also exist about Lee being a scapper in Hong Kong and a bit of a troublemaker.

I suspect Lee knew what he was doing. How would he have fared in MMA today? If he approached as afighter I'm sure he would have been decent in one of the lightweight divisions if only because he got on the cross training bandwagon early.
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby everything on Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:36 pm

BL influenced MMA greats such as Jon Jones. The eye poke and stop kick are interesting tangents because

- tends to happen accidentally or deliberately (Jones is criticized here)
- stop kick and side kick to lower thigh is now shown to be effective in mma (Jones is again controversial here)
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:34 pm

He made the Chinese people proud, especially in the countries where racism was present. He got people interested in the martial arts and physical fitness. He was a role model for some people in and out of the martial arts.


There has always been racism or at least orientalism around Chinese people since the 19th century. The traditional picture of a chinese man was the generalization that was either cruel or cowardly. I don't people realize how much Bruce Lee did to change common views on chinese people, or at least make them better and more varied. Here there was a Chinese who had a lot of integrity, and at the same time one who would show off his masulinity and was not afraid to fight for what he believed in. Bruce Lee represented something different and something completely new in popular culture of the Westersn world.
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:08 pm

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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Steve James on Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:14 pm

"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Trick on Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:23 am

Bao wrote:
He made the Chinese people proud, especially in the countries where racism was present. He got people interested in the martial arts and physical fitness. He was a role model for some people in and out of the martial arts.


There has always been racism or at least orientalism around Chinese people since the 19th century. The traditional picture of a chinese man was the generalization that was either cruel or cowardly. I don't people realize how much Bruce Lee did to change common views on chinese people, or at least make them better and more varied. Here there was a Chinese who had a lot of integrity, and at the same time one who would show off his masulinity and was not afraid to fight for what he believed in. Bruce Lee represented something different and something completely new in popular culture of the Westersn world.

I read many years ago that BL had On his mothers side European ancestry, and when I have pointed that out to Chinese most of them refuse to believe that
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby Trick on Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:48 am

marvin8 wrote:if Bruce Lee entered a karate tournament during that time, the champions would beat him for the fact of the rules.

I remember hearing stories about the early days of Karate tournaments in Europe, or was it just in Holland, I don't remember. Except for the Karatekas(many who just had a couple of months practice) there where everything from Gongfu people to Judo practitioners to just plain brawlers entering the tournaments.
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:20 am

marvin8 wrote:
KEND wrote:As far as I know he never took part in competition. There are stories of him demonstrating on the film set but could have been put out by his showbiz friends. It is difficult to say whether he or any of the CMA stars could actually fight well, Donnie had a traditional upbringing in MA my guess is that he can take care of himself. Due to BL Wing Chun became a major MA, the lineage came down mainly from Leung Jan who was a constable and obviously knew how to fight, Yip Man's top student who was strong and capable took care of challenges but until BL's emergence it was just another Southern style MA, along with Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut etc. Movies have created a world which puts WC on top of the heap besting all comers
I believe there was an article on Jackman Wong in IKF or Black Belt some while ago

Going by memory of what I read, the only regulation competition Bruce had was beating the champion boxer at his high school in Hong Kong. As far as fights, Bruce had rooftop fights in his teens, beat Yoichi Nakachi (karate) at a YMCA handball court in Seattle, fought Wong Jack Man and beat an extra on the set of Enter the Dragon.

Published on Apr 28, 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSGM9KmhfZE
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Re: Movies and fantasy

Postby KEND on Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:35 am

I think the BL group that produced the first movie did him a disservice by focusing on Chinatown resenting him for teaching foreigners rather than resenting a brash young man who did not respect his elders. There were many open schools on the west coast [Ark Yuey Wong, Kuo Lien, George Long etc] at that time. That he became iconic and dispelled the 'sick man of asia' label there is no doubt. He was also in the right place at the right time, the KF chop suey movies which started to emerge from cult status in the late 60's were heading up 'best movies' lists. It is debatable as to whether 'Enter the Dragon' or the whitewashed 'Kung Fu' series with its fortune cookie view of Asian martial philosophy was responsible for KF entering the mainstream.
Meanwhile on the East coast there really was resentment that non Chinese were being taught KF. The school I was in received threats to blow up the studio and even A 'Karate vs Kung Fu Tournament failed to stop the calls. By the early 70's even the Chinatown schools succumbed and taught [semi] openly.
Steve: the Tiger claw school incident was much later when a loudmouth Chinese instructor was quickly dispensed with by Paul Vizzio[a non Chinese student]
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