Fascist Britain

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Re: Fascist Britain

Postby GrahamB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:44 pm

You miss my point, Chris. The reason you can't come up with a single law that Britain hasn't been involved with is... there isn't one.

However, you seem to have your position confused. If you are against this bill, why are you not against laws being passed by the EU that directly impact the UK without ANY involvement from the UK populace or government? You seem to trust the EU parlimetnary process when laws are passed with no democratic process in place. But when the UK passes a similar process you have a problem with it?


So, your question makes absolutely no sense as it doesn't exist in the first place.

Britain always had the power to veto every single piece of legislation from the EU.

Maybe watch this:

Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fascist Britain

Postby liokault on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:03 pm

Britain has the power to veto only treaty amendments not laws....and we (the UK), nor any elected body, can't nominate what proposals go before the EU electors.

It's all done by un elected committee. I have yet to meet a committee without a vested interest.


http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/b ... gulations/

Seems that the UK in recent years has lost (voted on the losing side) of more EU votes than any other member country
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Re: Fascist Britain

Postby GrahamB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:29 pm

cloudz wrote:The Bills been passed; I heard a Conservative MP discuss it briefly on the Radio. He voted Remain and believes the Bill does offer Government unprecedented powers - which he thinks are excessive. He also believes that some if these will be curbed and toned down in Commitee. He voted for it to go through on the basis of it not going through at this critical time will result in problems we really don't want and don't need.. That seems like a very reasonable position to take; Bills rarely make it through the democratic process as is, things like this are pretty common. Throwing around terms like Fascism over this seems a little strong and sensationalist to me at this point.

You only need really look around the world to notice that we are still very lucky in the UK in terms of Government and Democracy (let's just pray Comrade Corbyn never makes it into Number 10). Heck we even have the decency to stand by our own referendum votes!


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Re: Fascist Britain

Postby middleway on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:38 am

You miss my point, Chris. The reason you can't come up with a single law that Britain hasn't been involved with is... there isn't one....

Britain always had the power to veto every single piece of legislation from the EU.


Graham, with every post you display your ignorance of the topic. The video is wonderful, but forgive me if i dont take the word of a radio host and an uninformed member of the public. Instead, lets look at the facts outside of news and media, from the EU themselves.

These are the areas we are able to Veto taken from the Council of the European Union website.


The Council has to vote unanimously on a number of matters which the member states consider to be sensitive. For example:

common foreign and security policy (with the exception of certain clearly defined cases which require qualified majority, e.g. appointment of a special representative)
citizenship (the granting of new rights to EU citizens)
EU membership
harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation
EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework)
certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.)
harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection.



And here are the areas we CANNOT veto if there is a majority in European parlimentary vote:

Where we do not have a veto

In almost all other policy areas the EU is capable of passing legislation that affects member states without unanimous agreement. In these areas a vote in the European Parliament and a system of Qualified Majority Voting in the Council of the EU is used to approve or reject proposals by the European Commission. About 80% of all EU legislation is adopted with this procedure.

As there is no one country in the union capable of outvoting the remaining member states, no country has a veto in these areas, and member countries can therefore be subject to EU regulation they did not support.

The policy areas where laws can be passed without unanimous support are in three categories. They are exclusive competences, where only the EU can make laws, shared competences, where countries can makes laws to cover areas the EU has not, and supporting competences, where the EU can intervene without EU laws requiring changes to countries laws.

Exclusive Competencies:

Customs union
The establishing of competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market
Monetary policy for euro area countries
Conservation of marine biological resources under the common fisheries policy
Common commercial policy
Conclusion of international agreements under certain conditions.

Shared competences:

Internal market
Social policy, but only for aspects specifically defined in the treaty
Economic, social and territorial cohesion (regional policy)
Agriculture and fisheries (except conservation of marine biological resources)
Environment
Consumer protection
Transport
Trans-european networks
Energy
Area of freedom, security and justice
Shared safety concerns in public health matters, limited to the aspects defined in the tfeu
Research, technological development, space
Development cooperation and humanitarian aid.

Supporting competences:

Protection and improvement of human health
Industry
Culture
Tourism
Education, vocational training, youth and sport
Civil protection
Administrative cooperation.

The UK also has opt-outs in some areas so EU decisions in those areas do not apply to the UK, this includes decisions about the euro, the Schengen area and some areas of justice and home affairs policy.

So though the UK, and all members retain a veto over some key areas of policy, such as the accession of new members (such as Turkey) and most areas of foreign policy (such as the creation of an EU Army), in most areas of policy within the EU, covering as much as 80% of EU law, the UK does not have a veto on EU decisions.


If you would like to see the full information from the EU themselves head here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3Aai0020


But with all that aside, and lets say we could Veto everything, which we cannot. This does not change the core point i am making.

Lets summarise :
1) You see the removal of parlimentary process from the institution of Laws as a scary measure taken by the UK government and think that our elected officials on all sides of the house should be involved in the decision to impliment law in our country. I agree with you.
2) You think that absense of parlimentary process & elected governance in the form of the EU is a good thing, in direct contradition to the process you fear above. we dissagree.

This is the logical fallacy you are presenting.

thanks
Last edited by middleway on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:50 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Fascist Britain

Postby GrahamB on Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:05 am

Well, it seems we agree on more than we disagree, so perhaps we should just focus on that? Nobody ever resolved anything by arguing over the Internet.

All the best,
Graham
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Re: Fascist Britain

Postby middleway on Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:23 am

Well, it seems we agree on more than we disagree, so perhaps we should just focus on that? Nobody ever resolved anything by arguing over the Internet.

All the best,
Graham


Amen. No anamosity at all this end :)

have a good one bro.

Chris.
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