Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:28 am

a “new, men-hating puritanism.”
Haneke said, “people are been killed in the media, lives and careers destroyed.”


Reminds me of how it must have felt for gays and communists a few years back.

Afa "men-hating," I just don't feel threatened. Now, I did once, when I was the only male in a feminist literature course. I left after the first class. No hard feelings, though.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 am

klonk wrote:
The way I see it everyone is capable of sexual assault and anyone who is guilty of it will deny the charges as all criminals do..


'Course, innocent people have this strange tendency to deny charges against them...

We want to avoid a circumstance where the charge almost brings the conviction with it, which is presumption of guilt.

Image


You misunderstood me but I wasn't clear. I never said all are guilty, I said those guilty will claim to be innocent that is how the game works. Over 90% of rape and molestation cases end up without a guilty verdict because they are hard to prove.

The person I knew claimed to be innocent but was guilty.
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:51 am

Michael wrote:We make rape one of the most seriously punished violent crimes, basically intending to protect women for obvious reasons. Then we make light of rape when the victims are men, even going as far as condoning it in prison, somehow not realizing there is probably some cause and effect for a percentage of rape victims later becoming perpetrators of sexual assault of some kind. Doesn't make a lot of sense.


You mean like 6 months cut in half for good behavior and time served for the Stanford student?

Sorry, I call bullshit. Over 90% of rape and molestation cases end up without a guilty verdict because they are hard to prove.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby klonk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 pm

University of Minnesota Removes Garrison Keillor Plaque

MINNEAPOLIS — The University of Minnesota has removed a plaque honoring humorist Garrison Keillor after he faced allegations of sexual misconduct.

Keillor's plaque is no longer displayed on the school's Scholars Walk, which honors outstanding university faculty and alumni, Minnesota Daily reported ...

In a statement Monday, the university said Keillor's plaque was removed along with others last month as part of a regular rotation...

Keillor has denied the allegations and says that the radio station fired him without a proper investigation...

MPR has removed from its website archived "A Prairie Home Companion" shows featuring Keillor. The network also ended broadcasts of "The Writer's Almanac," Keillor's daily reading of literary events and a poem, and ended rebroadcasts of Keillor-hosted "Prairie Home" shows...




Would you like to know more? https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/0 ... rsity.html
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Michael on Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:06 pm

grzegorz wrote:
Michael wrote:We make rape one of the most seriously punished violent crimes, basically intending to protect women for obvious reasons. Then we make light of rape when the victims are men, even going as far as condoning it in prison, somehow not realizing there is probably some cause and effect for a percentage of rape victims later becoming perpetrators of sexual assault of some kind. Doesn't make a lot of sense.


You mean like 6 months cut in half for good behavior and time served for the Stanford student?

Sorry, I call bullshit. Over 90% of rape and molestation cases end up without a guilty verdict because they are hard to prove.

They are very difficult to prove, but if proven, if found guilty, the sentences are long and the social stigma is more severe than for most other crimes.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:13 pm

Michael wrote:
grzegorz wrote:
Michael wrote:We make rape one of the most seriously punished violent crimes, basically intending to protect women for obvious reasons. Then we make light of rape when the victims are men, even going as far as condoning it in prison, somehow not realizing there is probably some cause and effect for a percentage of rape victims later becoming perpetrators of sexual assault of some kind. Doesn't make a lot of sense.


You mean like 6 months cut in half for good behavior and time served for the Stanford student?

Sorry, I call bullshit. Over 90% of rape and molestation cases end up without a guilty verdict because they are hard to prove.

They are very difficult to prove, but if proven, if found guilty, the sentences are long and the social stigma is more severe than for most other crimes.


Can you prove that?
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:25 pm

I don't know how reliable Wikipedia is, but I suspect that the number of boys being sexually harassed or coerced by men or older boys is fairly high. And that includes choir boys and kids in the family in addition to prisoners. However, this has nothing to do with #metoo because it's been that way for centuries. Yes, it's hard to admit. But, that in no way implies that sexual harassment claims are overblown. If men were to come out and admit they'd been abused by their priests, reverends, or bishops, wouldn't people simply say that the accusations are exaggerated? If people won't believe the women, why would they believe the men?

But, back to Wiki and data.
A CDC study found that, in the US, 1 in 71 men had been raped or suffered an attempt within their lifetime. The same study found that approximately 1 in 21 or 4.8% men in a survey had been made to penetrate someone else, usually an intimate partner or acquaintance.[34] A NVAW Survey found that 0.1 percent of men surveyed had been raped in the previous 12 months, compared to 0.3 percent of women. Using these statistics it was estimated that, in the US, 92,748 men had been raped in the previous year.[when?][35] In another study by the School of Public Health at Boston University, 30 percent of gay and bisexual men reported having experienced at least one form of sexual assault during their lifetimes.[36]

The rape of men has often been documented as a weapon of war.[37]

Male sexual assault is also prevalent on college campuses. On campuses, 1 in 16 men are survivors of sexual assault. Although the rate of male sexual assault is relatively high, many do not file reports due to the misconception of sexual assault being a women’s issue due to “preconceived notions about both sexual violence and gender."[38]

There are some cases when men will speak up about being a survivor, such as in the documentary The Hunting Ground, which is about the prevalence of sexual assault on college campuses and the failure of college administration to adequately deal with it.

Rape of males by males[edit]
Rape by males against males has been heavily stigmatized. According to psychologist Dr. Sarah Crome, fewer than 1 in 10 male-male rapes are reported. As a group, male rape victims reported a lack of services and support, and legal systems are often ill-equipped to deal with this type of crime.[39]

Several studies argue that male-male prisoner rape, as well as female-female prisoner rape, are common types of rape which go unreported even more frequently than rape in the general population.[note 1][note 2][note 3] The rape of men by men has been documented as a weapon of terror in warfare (see Wartime sexual violence).[37] Studies have documented incidents of male sexual violence as a weapon of wartime or political aggression in Uganda, Chile, Greece, Croatia, Iran, Kuwait, the former Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia. Seventy-six percent of male political prisoners in El Salvador surveyed in the 1980s described at least one incidence of sexual torture, and a study of 6,000 concentration-camp inmates in Sarajevo found that 80% of men reported having been raped.[37] In the case of the Syrian Civil War (2011–present), the male detainees experienced sexual abuse like being forced to sit on a broken glass bottle, getting their genitals tied to a heavy bag of water, or being forced to watch the rape of another detainee by the officials.[40]


If the figure of 1 in 71 male rape victims is correct, then let's multiply that times 10. That means 10 of every 71 men report being raped. (We could try to correct for "disbelief" and cut that by half, nowadays, but let's stick with 10). That means about 15% of males report being raped --by either sex, btw.

Of course, I think the stats for women and girls will be at least as high. So, I think that men should admit to being abused (even in domestic situations) to the same extent that women do. Then again, this is still gas-lighting. Everybody knows that women are more vulnerable than males. That's the argument that many anti#metooers use to justify why women are paid lower wages or shouldn't do certain types of work. Nothing personal, they'll argue. It's just the natural order of things, and Biblical too.

But, this isn't about male or female gender roles. It's about any person (male or female) to be able to say no to unwanted contact. I'm old fashioned. I remember that I must have whistled at girls when mini-skirts came along. I was never the "hey mama, you lookin' fine" kind of guy. Yet, I wouldn't want a laborer fired because he cat-called women who passed by. I know that it may be humiliating for the woman. Otoh, the woman and I were together, suddenly the situation changes. If the woman is your young daughter, I hope you see where I'm going.

If you turn every woman into your sister, daughter, mother, etc., you automatically know what you think is right or wrong. Ime, it goes beyond the law. My daughter comes home and says that the teacher groped her, I take it seriously. Now, when it comes to teens, there is always the possibility of a real witch hunt driven by spite. It's hard to imagine the parent who would simply disbelieve -- Yet we know from the Nassar case that hundreds of parents either didn't believe and children who were not believed. I can't imagine telling and not being believed. Well, "what would I want to happen if I were the victim" is another simple response.

Afa cases, of anything, the number of convictions can often have little to do with whether an offense was committed.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:17 pm

They are very difficult to prove, but if proven, if found guilty, the sentences are long and the social stigma is more severe than for most other crimes.


If it is difficult to prove it may not he true.

Where did you hear that? Because i haven't. In fact I have heard that drug convictions get the longest sentences at least they did during Reagan's war on drugs.

I ask because I have seen and heard of many people getting away with a slap on the wrist for a rape charge yet had it been murder the sentence would have been longer.

I would check my sources on that because I think in 2018 in my particular state your statement doesn't hold up.

For example from CNN.

Brock Turner released from jail after serving 3 months for sexual assault


https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/02/us/brock ... index.html
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:24 pm

If it true that rape of a minor or an adult female stiffer sentences it would make perfect sense to me. Like a sheriff in a western, women and children need protection from outlaws because they are more likely helpless in these situations. But in the case of Brock Turner justice was not served and I believe convictions of child molestors and date rape (for example) are tougher to prosecute.
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby klonk on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:28 am

However, this has nothing to do with #metoo


Just to narrow the topic, might you consider this issue separately, maybe as #eromenos or #catamitesunited or #bottomsup? Surely it is horrid to be forced, but your juxtaposition (You: NEVER MIND I SAID THAT!!!) asks what it denies.

Why bring it in, only to rule it out? That is a cheap trick of rhetoric.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:13 am

Hmm, that's an ad hominem that does nothing to support any argument.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:37 am

Colbie Holderness, an ex-wife of former Trump administration official Rob Porter, took umbrage in a Washington Post op-ed at the seeming suggestion from counselor to the president Kellyanne Conway that victims of domestic violence lack strength.

Conway, in an appearance last weekend on CNN’s “State of the Union,” was asked about Porter, the White House staff secretary who resigned last week amid allegations of abuse from Holderness and another ex-wife, Jennifer Willoughby. The counselor to the president told CNN she had no reason not to believe the allegations from Willoughby and Holderness, but when asked whether she feared for White House communications director Hope Hicks, reported to be dating Porter, Conway said, “I’ve rarely met somebody so strong with such excellent instincts and loyalty and smarts.”

“Her statement implies that those who have been in abusive relationships are not strong,” Holderness wrote in her op-ed, published online Monday night. “I beg to differ.”

...
President Donald Trump himself has spoken warmly in public about Porter without any mention of his alleged victims.

"Monday, White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders again declined to say whether the president believes Willoughby and me. While I cannot say I am surprised, I expected a woman to do better,” Holderness wrote. “But Conway and I definitely agree on one thing she said during that interview: ‘There’s a stigma and a silence surrounding all these issues. ... Those who are in a position to do something about it ought to.’”


Ya don't have to believe her. But, Porter's other wife says he was abusive, and then there's a picture.
Image
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVdstsHUMAAqas4.jpg

Of course, Porter says that she just fell. Hmm, where have I heard excuses like that before?
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:21 am

This is from the ex-wife of the speech-writer who just resigned.

The ex-wife of former White House speechwriter David Sorensen — who resigned last week amid allegations that he abused his former spouse — is disputing President Donald Trump's suggestion that his former staffer didn't get due process.
Jessica Corbett, who first came forward publicly with the allegations last week, told NBC's "Today" in an exclusive interview that aired Tuesday that she was the one being mistreated.

"I got no due process," she said, addressing Trump's tweet last week in which the president wrote that Sorensen may have been "falsely accused." The president also suggested there was "no such thing any longer as Due Process."

"I think he knows the truth, but the truth is bad for business," Corbett said about Trump.

She said her ex-husband "got due process when I answered the FBI agents truthfully," adding that she only spoke to the FBI after the agency contacted her last year about her ex-husband's security clearance for his White House post.

The agent's first question, Corbett said, was, "Why did you and David get a divorce?"
"Because he was abusive… and I escaped and survived," she said she told the agent.
Corbett told "Today" that Sorensen had thrown her into a wall and burned her with a cigarette during their two-and-a-half year marriage.
...
Corbett added that she "wasn't out to get him" by disclosing her accusation publicly.
"People accuse me of trying to bring a good man down, but all I did was tell the truth," she said. "I wasn't out to get him, I was not trying to get him denied this job by telling the truth. I do very much believe he is one of the best and most capable people at what he does professionally."


That last part, "all I did was tell the truth" says it all. So, does her statement that there's no question the man was great at what he did. However, it comes down to character. Anyway, I think that it's legitimate to ask whether a man or woman should be fired for beating his or her spouse. Should a person be fired because of an accusation? But, imo, the crucial question is "should we accept spousal abuse?" At one time, and still today in some places, wife-beating is socially acceptable. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... metimes-ok
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Michael on Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:28 pm

grzegorz wrote:Where did you hear that? Because i haven't. In fact I have heard that drug convictions get the longest sentences at least they did during Reagan's war on drugs.

I ask because I have seen and heard of many people getting away with a slap on the wrist for a rape charge yet had it been murder the sentence would have been longer.

I would check my sources on that because I think in 2018 in my particular state your statement doesn't hold up.

In Texas, it's anywhere from 2 to 99 years. There's a large gradient of offenses in that category.
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Re: Meet the Women Worried About #MeToo

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:55 am

Michael wrote:
grzegorz wrote:Where did you hear that? Because i haven't. In fact I have heard that drug convictions get the longest sentences at least they did during Reagan's war on drugs.

I ask because I have seen and heard of many people getting away with a slap on the wrist for a rape charge yet had it been murder the sentence would have been longer.

I would check my sources on that because I think in 2018 in my particular state your statement doesn't hold up.

In Texas, it's anywhere from 2 to 99 years. There's a large gradient of offenses in that category.


Hmm, perhaps a better way to put that would that there is a wide degree latitude granted to judges in sentencing. That is what is evidenced by what we see not only in Tehas, but elsewhere, too.

Make no mistake, rapists of men and boys should face similar sentencing. But, they don't. See the recent gang rape by Wheaton college football players who had to...wait for it...write an 8 page essay after forcibly abducting and sodomizing their underclassman. Boys will be boys.
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