The Islamic State

[klonk]

It's clear that I have put my finger on a real problem. The problem is real even if it exists only as a matter of warped perception. Perception is reality, when it comes to social and political forces as they influence individuals and groups. If you expect people to act always as well informed rational agents you cannot make sense of history books.

Fortunately, The American Muslim has been at work compiling these often ignored Muslim voices.

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/fe ... as/0012209

That's good. The Islamic American Congress and the Canadian Muslim Congress are also on this wavelength. Why are they "often ignored"? The message's lack of traction is obvious to anyone. But what is the reason?

Here we get into a general problem in public perception, a blindness of many people, on all sides of any issue. Consider these terms:

All X
Some X
At least one X

Let us say that X stands for Muslims, though it could stand for anyone.

You also hear terms like:

Many X
Most X

Listen to how carelessly people use these terms when you are the X. They confuse one with another. It is an education in how arguments get quantified. A still greater challenge is to be conscious of how you yourself use such terms when talking about someone else as the X.

Anyway the problem of perception remains. Perhaps it is because actions speak louder than words. The news is full of atrocities and violence, to which objecting voices, when raised, seem like footnotes, and ineffectual.

[leifeng]

I also can't shake this feeling that I have said ALL of this more than once in the many years I have been posting here...

Probably if we make clear one simple question you wouldn't need to repeat everything at least to me for the years to come. My question is "What is moderate Islam?"
Let's say an adult-sane-male Muslim who was born to a Muslim parent decides to convert to Another religion. According to very clear riwaya from Imam Ali and Sadegh this person should be executed and even if he makes a confession and decides to come back to Islam after getting captured this wouldn't change his fate.

What would be a moderate Islamic view regarding this matter? If you agree with Imam Ali and Sadegh you are accepting that by modern human values your religion is as barbaric as some Islam's critics are saying. If you don't agree with your Imams you are defying your religion and since defying Imamat is considered as heresy by many Shiite scholars you might as well be considered as heretic yourself.

[zenshiite]

I also can't shake this feeling that I have said ALL of this more than once in the many years I have been posting here...

Probably if we make clear one simple question you wouldn't need to repeat everything at least to me for the years to come. My question is "What is moderate Islam?"
Let's say an adult-sane-male Muslim who was born to a Muslim parent decides to convert to Another religion. According to very clear riwaya from Imam Ali and Sadegh this person should be executed and even if he makes a confession and decides to come back to Islam after getting captured this wouldn't change his fate.

What would be a moderate Islamic view regarding this matter? If you agree with Imam Ali and Sadegh you are accepting that by modern human values your religion is as barbaric as some Islam's critics are saying. If you don't agree with your Imams you are defying your religion and since defying Imamat is considered as heresy by many Shiite scholars you might as well be considered as heretic yourself.

I couldn't really make an informed response to that since I am not an expert in fiqh, frankly. To my knowledge there are a great many legal issues surrounding that particular topic, which also include actually aiding enemy groups against the Muslims. So it's not really something I am particularly well versed in, not having been a howza student. I'm sure there are also plenty of other riwaya to give the matter more nuance than you are letting on.

But again, thanks for telling me what I'm supposed to believe.

[zenshiite]

It's clear that I have put my finger on a real problem. The problem is real even if it exists only as a matter of warped perception. Perception is reality, when it comes to social and political forces as they influence individuals and groups. If you expect people to act always as well informed rational agents you cannot make sense of history books.

Fortunately, The American Muslim has been at work compiling these often ignored Muslim voices.

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/fe ... as/0012209

That's good. The Islamic American Congress and the Canadian Muslim Congress are also on this wavelength. Why are they "often ignored"? The message's lack of traction is obvious to anyone. But what is the reason?

Here we get into a general problem in public perception, a blindness of many people, on all sides of any issue. Consider these terms:

All X
Some X
At least one X

Let us say that X stands for Muslims, though it could stand for anyone.

You also hear terms like:

Many X
Most X

Listen to how carelessly people use these terms when you are the X. They confuse one with another. It is an education in how arguments get quantified. A still greater challenge is to be conscious of how you yourself use such terms when talking about someone else as the X.

Anyway the problem of perception remains. Perhaps it is because actions speak louder than words. The news is full of atrocities and violence, to which objecting voices, when raised, seem like footnotes, and ineffectual.

If the problem is of perception, and you have been given plenty of evidence of the contrary of that perception... perhaps the onus falls on the constructors of your perception and not the subjects, eh?

[edededed]

Religion is very powerful, because in a way it "overwrites" ethics.

If you are a nerd, you can kind of think of it as a kind of ethical malware that may be injected in different levels (rootkit (base thinking), dlls (modular thinking), etc.). The result, like malware, is a system that works in a different way, but it is not always apparent why or how it has become different. (It is also very difficult to remove malware - often requiring total recreation of a system from scratch.)

Malware can also range from "virulent bug that uses itself as a base to seek and destroy other systems" to "annoying popup."

[Michael]

I like your analogy, Ed.

[allen2saint]

Religion is very powerful, because in a way it "overwrites" ethics.

If you are a nerd, you can kind of think of it as a kind of ethical malware that may be injected in different levels (rootkit (base thinking), dlls (modular thinking), etc.). The result, like malware, is a system that works in a different way, but it is not always apparent why or how it has become different. (It is also very difficult to remove malware - often requiring total recreation of a system from scratch.)

Malware can also range from "virulent bug that uses itself as a base to seek and destroy other systems" to "annoying popup."

So, let me get this straight....you're criticizing religion for installing hypocrisy into human nature? That's been there from the start. The world will never know what would have happened had religion never existed, but it is kind of basic world history to acknowledge that religion has informed and promulgated ethics a great deal as well.

There is a great line from my favorite show, Deep Space 9, where the alien bartender, who is kind of a low life, calls out the do-gooder representative of the Federation and says...

"You Federation types are all alike: You talk about tolerance and understanding, but you only practice it toward people who remind you of yourselves. Because you disapprove of Ferengi values( fill in what you see fit...Muslim values, Christian values perhaps), you scorn us, distrust us..."

I'm sure that many people who criticize Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc to the point of grossly oversimplifying their roles in the world and speaking prejudicially of them, do so because they say are against "intolerance."

[vehu]

שְׁנַ֥יִם זֵיתִ֖ים עָלֶ֑יהָ
אֶחָד֙ מִימִ֣ין הַגֻּלָּ֔ה
וְאֶחָ֖ד עַל־שְׂמֹאלָֽהּ׃

[windwalker]

ISLAM - What the West Needs to Know

An examination of Islam, violence, and the fate of the non-Muslim world.
(98 mins)

Main Idea.
Virtually every major Western leader has over the past several years expressed the view that Islam is a peaceful religion and that those who commit violence in its name are fanatics who misinterpret its tenets. This claim, while widely circulated, rarely attracts serious public examination. Relying primarily on Islam's own sources, this documentary demonstrates that Islam is a violent, expansionary ideology that seeks the destruction or subjugation of other faiths, cultures, and systems of government.

Content.
The documentary consists of original interviews, citations from Islamic texts, Islamic artwork, computer-animated maps, footage of Western leaders, and Islamic television broadcasts. Its tone is sober, methodical, and compelling.

Outline of the Documentary.
Introduction.
We hear from prominent Western leaders that Islam is peaceful and that those who commit violence in its name are heterodox fanatics.

Part 1: 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Prophet'
Our interviewees affirm their belief that Islamic violence is entirely orthodox behavior for Muslims and stems directly from the teachings and example of the Prophet Muhammad and the commands of the Koran. We learn that the example of Muhammad is one of a violent warlord who killed numerous people. The Koran -- the verbatim words of Allah -- prescribes violence against non-Muslims and Muhammad is the perfect example of the Koran in action.

Part 2: The Struggle
We learn that jihad, while literally meaning 'struggle', in fact denotes war fought against non-Muslims in order to bring the rule of Islamic law to the world. Violent death in jihad is, according to the Koran, the only assurance of salvation. One of our interviewees tells of his personal involvement in terrorism and his leaving Islam.

Part 3: Expansion
Following the death of Muhammad, his 'rightly-guided' successors carried his wars to three continents, fighting, enslaving, and massacring countless Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and others. Islam did not spread through evangelism or through its natural appeal, but through aggressive wars of conquest. The Crusades were largely a belated response on the part of Christian Europe to rescue Christians in the Holy Land suffering under Muslim oppression. The Muslim world today, while no longer the unified empire of the Caliphs, is exceptional for being responsible for the vast majority of conflicts around the world and for almost all of international terrorism.

Part 4: 'War is Deceit'
A great problem with Western efforts to understand Islam is due to the Islamic principle of 'religious deception', which enjoins Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam. Muslim groups today in the West employ deception and omission to give the impression that 'Islam is a religion of peace', an utter fiction.

Part 5: More than a Religion
The most important characteristic of Islam not understood by the West is that it is more a system of government than a personal religion. Throughout its history, Islam has never recognized a distinction between the religious and the secular/political. Islamic law governs every aspect of religious, political, and personal action, which amounts to a form of totalitarianism that is divinely enjoined to dominate the world, analogous in many ways to Communism.

Part 6: The House of War
Islamic theology divides the world into two spheres locked in perpetual combat, dar al-Islam (House of Islam - where Islamic law predominates), and dar al-harb (House of War - the rest of the world). It is incumbent on dar al-Islam to fight and conquer dar al-harb and permanently assimilate it. Muslims in Western nations are called to subvert the secular regimes in which they now live in accordance with Allah's command. Due to political correctness and general government and media irresponsibility, the danger posed by observant Muslims in the West remains largely unappreciated.

thought the video was quite interesting
address many points presented.

[grzegorz]

Christians fleeing Mosul.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/07/20/iraq ... ultimatum/

[klonk]

From Breitbart News:

'We are All Christians': Anti-ISIS Graffiti Appears in Mosul after Terrorists Expel Christians http://bit.ly/1u8mkZU

This week, ISIS began distributing pamphlets to Christians in Mosul, warning that they had the option of either converting to Sunni Islam, leaving the city and relinquishing all their possessions to ISIS, or being killed:

[allen2saint]

It's never just religion. It's culture, plus politics, plus religion that makes up what we are discussing here as "religion."

The "documentary" is biased and fosters discrimination towards Muslims. The laughable part is that no one yet has quoted a real Islamic scholar or any religious scholars for that matter. Just fear mongering. It's as bad as the "Israel's Fake History" post.It's just a religion we don't mind disriminating against as much.

[klonk]

An urgent message of Patriarch Louis Raphael I Sako

Chaldean Catholic Patriarch of Baghdad

Mosul Christians: Whither?

To all who have a living conscience in Iraq and all the world

To the voice of moderate brother Muslims who have a voice in Iraq and all the world

To all who have a concern that Iraq could remain a country for all His Children

To all leaders of thought and opinion

To all who announce the freedom of the human being

To all protectors of the dignity of human beings and of religion

PEACE AND MERCY FROM GOD!

The control exercised by the Islamist Jihadists upon the city of Mosul, and their proclamation of it as an Islamic State, after several days of calm and expectant watching of events, has now come to reflect negatively upon the Christian population of the city and its environs.

The initial sign was in the kidnapping of the two nuns and 3 orphans who were released after 17 days. At the time, we experienced it as a flash of hope and as a clearing of the sky after the appearance of storm clouds.

Suddenly we have been surprised by the more recent outcomes which are the proclamation of an Islamic state and the announcement calling all Christians and clearly asking them to convert to Islam or to pay the jizyah (the tax all non- Muslims must pay while living in the land of Islam) – without specifying the exact amount. The only alternative is to abandon the city and their houses with only the clothes they are wearing, taking nothing else. Moreover, by Islamic law, upon their departure, their houses are no longer their properties but are instantly confiscated as property of the Islamic state.

In recent days, there has been written the letter ‘N’ in Arabic on the front wall of Christian homes, signifying ‘Nazara’ (Christian), and on the front wall of Shiite homes, the letter ‘R’ signifying ‘Rwafidh’ (Protestants or rejecters). We do not know what will happen in future days because in an Islamic state the Al-sharia or Islamic code of law is powerful and has been interpreted to require the issuance of new I.Ds for the population based on religious or sectarian affiliation.

This categorization based upon religion or sect afflicts the Muslims as well and contravenes the regulation of Islamic thought which is expressed in the Quran which says, “You have your religion and I have my religion” and yet another place in Quran states, “There is no compulsion in religion”. This is exactly the contradiction in the life and history of the Islamic world for more than 1400 years and in the co-existence with other different religions and nations in the East.

With all due respect to belief and dogmas, there has been a fraternal life between Christians and Muslims. How much the Christians have shared here in our East specifically from the beginnings of Islam. They shared every sweet and bitter circumstance of life; Christian and Muslim blood has been mixed as it was shed in the defense of their rights and lands. Together they built a civilization, cities, and a heritage. It is truly unjust now to treat Christians by rejecting them and throwing them away, considering them as nothing.

It is clear that the result of all this discrimination legally enforced will be the very dangerous elimination of the possibility of co-existence between majorities and minorities. It will be very harmful to Muslims themselves both in the near and the distant future.

Should this direction continue to be pursued, Iraq will come face to face with human, civil, and historic catastrophe.

We call with all the force available to us; we call to you fraternally, in a spirit of human brotherhood; we call to you urgently; we call to you impelled by risk and in spite of the risk. We implore in particular our Iraqi brothers asking them to reconsider and reflect upon the strategy they have adopted and demanding that they must respect innocent and weaponless people of all nationalities, religions, and sects.

The Holy Quran has ordered believers to respect the innocent and has never called them to seize the belongings, the possessions, the properties of others by force. The Quran commands refuge for the widow, the orphaned, the poor, and the weaponless and respect "to the seventh neighbor."

We call Christians in the region to act with reason and prudence and to consider and to plan everything in the best way possible. Let them understand what is planned for this region, to practice solidarity in love, to examine the realities together and so be able together to find the paths to build trust in themselves and in their neighbors. Let them stay close to their own Church and surround it; endure the time of trial and pray until the storm will be over.

† Louis Raphael Sako


Patriarch of Babylon

17 July 2014

[middleway]

I understand that people are different and several good friends of mine are Muslims. But I found this a little .... Interesting... Shall we say.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-or-islamophobia2

Regards

[chud]

‘Even Genghis Khan didn’t do this’: click

“How in the 21st century could people be forced from their houses just because they are Christian, or Shi'ite or Sunni or Yazidi?
Christian families have been expelled from their houses and their valuables were stolen … their houses and property expropriated in the name of the Islamic State.
Even Genghis Khan or Hulagu [his grandson] didn't do this.”
--Patriarch Louis Raphaël I Sako, head of the Chaldean Catholic Church

And people wonder how the Crusades started...