What is infernal?

[klonk]

If one wishes to say the devil does not exist, one finds one cannot prove it. The evidence, though indirect, is better on the other side. To say there is no organizing intelligence behind evil is to overlook how concerted evil is and the appearance of cooperation in what would seem unconnected acts by various random people with no apparent links person to person.

[affa]

how concerted evil is and the appearance of cooperation in what would seem unconnected acts by various random people with no apparent links person to person.

but that's how the kingdom works as well, right?

[affa]

by the way...

definitely met(t)a

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

[internalenthusiast]

If one wishes to say the devil does not exist, one finds one cannot prove it. The evidence, though indirect, is better on the other side. To say there is no organizing intelligence behind evil is to overlook how concerted evil is and the appearance of cooperation in what would seem unconnected acts by various random people with no apparent links person to person.

yeah, it's impossible to prove a negative...and hard to prove a positive if there's no conclusive "evidence". i'm not sure there is real "evidence" of a devil.

however, i do understand what you are saying, and really don't argue/debate with people about such personal beliefs. and wouldn't want to try to dissuade you from yours...and (i think) i understand why you/one might say what you do. and there are people i know and love, who express the same outlook as you do. i accept them and love them for who they are, even if the premises of their actions might differ in some respects from mine.

the example in reference to your post (about evil) that jumps to my mind immediately is the holocaust. but there are plenty of other examples. unfortunately.

all of us have our beliefs, and i'm more concerned with how we can treat each other decently as human beings, than i am with what people believe (as creed). there are plenty of people in the world who (try to, or do...) treat others with respect and love, who are not "Christians".

as the playwright david mamet said in the mouth of one of his characters (in quite a different context, as the character speaking is a criminal!): "action talks and bullshit walks".

not to imply that beliefs of (you, or me, or...) anyone are "bullshit". i just take the quotation to mean actions speak louder than professions of belief per se.

my earliest religious education was as a quaker. through this i was taught: the light of God is in every person. i realize there's no "evidence" for that either. but if one accepts this, then one may accept the fact that people may "lose the way." or lose touch with "God" or the part of themselves that leads them in the right direction. it's an alternative explanation of how "evil" may happen.

i want to say again, i'm not trying to change your mind. only explaining where i'm coming from.

let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

amen.

my best to you, and all...

[mixjourneyman]

I am both god and the devil. So are you.

[wiesiek]

however
Tao isn`t god nor devil
if
we have to place It somwere
it will be this tiny "S" line between yin and yang ,
absolute is neutral
and
god and devil works like amps. to incerase his mighty neutrality

so
we have mighty 3
just
today dream...

[affa]

god and devil works like amps

I am both

[klonk]

Very briefly, on the Quaker inner light, there is a pitfall to watch for in this thinking. There is a certain kind of Quaker for whom his own inner light justifies whatever he likes. It should be a danger sign to anyone if the God of all agrees with you about everything: It's a sign you made him up.

Please note I am talking about some Quakers.

And I might as well be talking about some Episcopalians.

Or, I suppose, some you-name-its. The Quaker, though, is vulnerable to this through his church's rejection of ecclesiastical tradition in the form of sacramental worship and the lack of a really cohesive view, Quaker to Quaker, of how sacred scripture should be read.

Disclosure: I got part of my education in a Quaker college.

[internalenthusiast]

oh dear, the second chapter of my religious education was in the episcopal church!



but more seriously, i'd agree that your reservation might apply to most anyone. or at least i'd think so. i'm not sure that the percentage of people "sinning" is any more among quakers than anyone else. say catholics, or any other faith.

if anyone feels that their actions are right, just because these actions fulfill their personal desires...well, i'd agree they've already slipped into very dangerous territory. or as you imply, slipped over the edge already. IMO, that's the reason there's a word in the spiritual vocabulary: "temptation".

affa quoted the "God is love" scripture from john. lots of us (people) can have confusion about what "love" is, at some point in our lives. perhaps mistaking it for personal desire, for instance. in the extreme, one sees this in examples of abuse, infidelity, etc.

we are all frail. some more than others, or in different ways. IMO. at the same time, one does have a choice about these matters.

this is just one example (the love example), but i'd say it's an example of losing touch with the genuine "inner light/God in each of us". and mistaking what is right, for what one desires in a personal sense. i'm not sure quakers statistically are more prone to this than anyone else. (though i have no statistics for this.)

even saint augustine went through his troubles, as he defined them? i.e., to struggle with this is common to all of us subject to temptation, who have any spiritual inclination. or even a desire to do the right thing.

best...

[LDShouler]

All of this 'good and evil' debate could be considered a moot point if you were to try to take the perspective of 'just another animal' rather than a humanocentric view...

[affa]

All of this 'good and evil' debate could be considered a moot point if you were to try to take the perspective of 'just another animal' rather than a humanocentric view...

... nevertheless, the gist of our classical definitions might stand, pragmatically, as such.

[LDShouler]

The only problem is, what is 'evil' to me might well be considered 'good' to you- context and culture can dictate a lot of our current definitions. By the way, I'm not propounding an amoral society...

[affa]

you must be a really fast reader

good and evil

[bartekb]

So, if you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Jacobs Ladder

[klonk]

The only problem is, what is 'evil' to me might well be considered 'good' to you- context and culture can dictate a lot of our current definitions. By the way, I'm not propounding an amoral society...

Your ideas about evil will firm up remarkably, take on a whole new muscle tone, when you have been subjected to some real evil. Just sayin'!

The worst of evil wears the mask of being somehow in the right--the tyrant who oppresses "for your own good," or "to usher in a new era of human progress," or the murder who says "Don't make me do this," or the abuser who says, "The child wanted it and tempted me."

Or, "Save the Vaterland from the Jews!"

No, this view of yours will not wash. If you like, you can find here a good if short compendium of ways disparate nations have all along agreed on some few core ideas of morality: The Abolition of Man by C. S. Lewis http://amzn.to/a9NP3X (The rest of the book is also worth reading.)

Pontius Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" So it's not a new question, but becomes fashionable at intervals. It is popular because it disposes of all other questions. So expertise in the philosophy of truth and morals is condensed to knowing just one rhetorical trick.

For experimental validation, go around and beng quan every moral relativist you meet. When he protests, say, "Who are you to impose your values on me?"