Democracy's Defeat

[bailewen]

You know you completely invalidate yourself by labeling him a "socialist". At least you put it in quotes.

What you and I want in real terms couldn't be farther apart on the political spectrum. I voted for him largely out of fear of people like you. The strange bedfellows that we are becoming is because, ironically, Obama has turned out to be nothing like what you were afraid of and nothing related to what I voted fore.

his "socialist" {read:self interested unions} cronies

*sigh* there are so many embedded claims in a line like that that it's hard to respond because responding to any part of it implies an acceptance of other implied claims that I do not accept.

If I could vote for an actual socialist, I would do so in a heartbeat. Every positive single issue that has gone down in defeat has done so at the hands of corporate interests. I do not want to live in a plutocracy. The standard of living, chance for economic advancement, room for creative development and for decent "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is VASTLY better in any of the social democracies out there across the water.

Did you know that the US does not lead the world in new patents. I thought it was Germany but I googled it just to make sure....CHINA is set to be the new world leader in innovation and new technology. WTF!?! They are taking the lead from Japan. The US isn't even in the running.

Yes. I'll take a little socialism with my Democracy, Thank you very much. Why anyeone would vote against greater social equality, stronger economic growth and a higher standard of living for themselves is beyond me.

[Buddy]

Because I don't believe it offers what you think it does. So let's do a little experiment. And I say this because I have real socialists as friends and they fail in it as well.
Show me ONE instance in the history of the world where it has worked. When you fail, because you will, I will show you the tiniest example (50-<100 people) where it failed.
Omar, I never invalidate myself and for you to make such a stupid and insulting statement says more about you. You know nothing of my political philosophy and are comfortable assuming you do, Again, that's on you, not me. You assume I'm afraid of what Obama is (not will become, read Saul Alinsky much?). Again, you ere. I care not whether you accept anything I say. Your man proved disappointing. What a shock.
"...greater social equality, stronger economic growth and a higher standard of living for themselves is beyond me."

Naivety at its best.

[affa]

First time in the history of RSF I am going to agree with Chris Fleming.

chris fleming's good people, yo.

[bailewen]

Show me ONE instance in the history of the world where it has worked. When you fail, because you will, I will show you the tiniest example (50-<100 people) where it failed..

France
Germany
Sweden
Netherlands
Belgium
Holland

Pretty much any country in the EU.

You lose.

Thanks for flaunting your ignorance.

You pretty much shot yourself in the foot the moment you labeled Obama a socialist.

[bailewen]

First time in the history of RSF I am going to agree with Chris Fleming.

chris fleming's good people, yo.

I can take the good with the bad in most cases but for me, religious extremism and cultural bigotry trump an awful lot of good traits. I can actually deal with the religious part somewhat but I draw the line at the sort of outrageous anti-muslim bigotry he consistently shows on every thread with anything to do with Islam or middle eastern politics. For me, he may as well be one of the nicest people you ever met...except for being a clansman on the weekends. In my world, they are the same category of "good folks".

[internalenthusiast]

lots of good, heart-felt posts, with points i agree with.

and a lot of pain on this thread, from people who care (even if they have different outlooks).

personally, i think the citizens united ruling was a huge mistake. and may be the death knell of democracy, unless the tide is shifted. the later it gets, the more difficult the tide will be to shift. i hope it is not too late, now. it is quite clear why this ruling was made. i.e., the interests in question are clear.

corporations do not vote. they are not "citizens". allowing corporations to control elections, through spending the profits they make from true citizens (particularly when those corporations are not required to disclose their support) disenfranchises true citizens. and the fact that the support is not disclosed, makes boycotting them very difficult.

the fact that even foreign corporations can exert undisclosed influence, makes the situation even more difficult.

Re: the tea party. i wish i could believe they are an independent party. i do believe some of the members are sincere. however, i have seen footage of tea party rallies "conducted" by employees of fox news. and, they are funded in part by the koch brothers. i think (as in other instances in our country's history) lots of people are being persuaded to vote against their best interests. through the propagation of fear.

we have been through tough times before (civil war, depression) and i refuse to believe it's too late to do anything.
at the same time, honestly, i do feel we are on the verge of losing (in practical terms) the voice of the citizen.

i also follow the disillusionment expressed with the present administration. i feel many of the same things. at the same time, i think most of my votes during my lifetime have been for "the lesser of two evils."

i'll continue to vote for the lesser evil (if necessary) over the greater one. i don't think i have another choice, other than to throw away my vote.

my best to all...

[bailewen]

This is time round when I think I have reached a tipping point and no longer think of it as a throw away. If I could do it over again, I'd go back an vote for Kucinich before I'd vote for Ron Paul but, as kooky as I find Ron Paul, I now think that at least he'd go in there and follow his conscience rather than just doing what the big money tells him.

After Obama, I no longer think that there is a lesser of two evils. The only difference I can find between Obama and his Republican opposition is in tax policy and the changes there even are pretty damn minor. That's why when anyone calls him a socialist I just laugh that person out of the room. He's essentially a republican. 20 years ago he would have been considered a conservative Republican.

Also, I think that the Tea party movement was totally legitimate. It's just being co-opted via the standard playbook. They kind of startled the Republican party catching many of the party leaders off guard. They weren't really ready to be attacked from the right. They'd been so focused on the left they were wide open for a populist movement. Once they got their bearings though, they pretty much just bought the Tea part right out from under its self. Murdoch funds most of their rallies and guides the tea party message to the point where now you can pretty much make a one to one correlation between Tea party issues and Fox talking points. I do think though that it started out authentic.

[Dmitri]

as kooky as I find Ron Paul, I now think that at least he'd go in there and follow his conscience rather than just doing what the big money tells him

Absolutely. That was the biggest reason I was promoting the guy and contributing to his campaign a couple years ago... I disagree with him on some things (e.g. abortions), but he has been 100% consistent and unshaken with his views and behavior over the decades of public service, and always 100% honest and sincere about them.
It's just too damn bad... but "the mob" (yes Steve, I'm using that word again... ) OK fine, "the overwhelming majority" (is that better?) would never vote for someone like that, unless those qualities happen to coincide with him being tall, dark and handsome. And the chances of that are near zero IMO... Someone as brutally honest and genuinely uninterested in "high position" as Ron Paul ever making it anywhere near the top is rare enough.

[bailewen]

I have to admit, I was definitely one of "the mob" back then a couple years back. I remember you pushing Ron Paul and me, at the time, thinking still that he was just a nut and besides that, I am no libertarian. I actually like government. I think that anyone not in the top 2 or 3 percent of earners who thinks that less government will let them be more free to make money and climb up into the upper classes is a hopeless pollyanna. Jesus Christ man, who do you think is going to fill that vacuum? I just can't fucking figure out why folks think that a multinational corporation that is not even necessarily American is going to have better motivations than a government who at least, in theory anyways, can be voted out.

But over the past 2 years, watching Obama, who I had really high hopes for, just basically transform into a corporatist Republican right after he took office....

I guess these days I'd rather have someone I disagree with ideologically but who is their own man rather than just another random suckup to the corporate teat. I'd rather have Dennis Kuscinich than Ron Paul but I'd rather have Ron Paul than another Lemon Brothers pseudo employee. I'm pretty fucking desperate for ANYTHING that is different. It just makes me break out in a cold sweat to think that the "anything" might end up being from the extreme right (tea party). That's the last thing I need.

Meh. If things get too bad I can always chill out in China until normalcy returns. My current dream is to get certified as an interpreter (planning to try and test for it next spring) and then use those credentials to move to some EU state. I really like Germany these days and always seem to get on well with the various Germans I have met over the years here in China. Even when I was a foreign exchange student back in '99-'01 I seemed to only hang out with either Germans or Russians.

[Dmitri]

If things get too bad I can always chill out in China until normalcy returns.

Now that's one damn scary statement... That's basically saying that China's political system is more "normal" than the one in the US.
Ouch man, that just hurts.

[Steve James]

Obama dissatifies the right and the left. That puts him in the middle. Ron Paul, if he beame President, would still be only one third of a gov't that was designed to have checks and balances ---which was established to ensure that 'the mob' (ie, the majority) would not dominate. We can debate its success, but not its intent. Actually, an equally divided House and senate is not a bad thing. If you expected O to change the gov't, you were foolish, whether you were a supporter or opponent --either way, you were wrong.

[bailewen]

Dmitri,

lol. Yes and no. As a foreign national living in China, I am not subject to the same restrictions as actual Chinese citizens. I still retain my constitutional rights as an American and am both entitled to the same social benefits America offers and also free to leave China at any time. Currently, there are no government benefits that I can take advantage of in America, not one that I can think of. I have never claimed unemployment in my lifetime although I have certainly been unemployed. I am too young to collect social security and most of my income over my lifetime has been under the table or otherwise unreported anyways. Worked for tips as a waiter. Worked a lot of odd jobs. Worked for family. Stuff like that. The past 10 years in China I have paid Chinese taxes but only taken home about 7 grand US on most of those years.

Basically, if I wasn't saddled with student loan debt, I would live a vastly more comfortable life in China on about $500/month than I was ever able to in the states. I can afford to see a doctor here even though I don't have insurance and I have vacation time, a decent apartment and enough spare cash to let the wife stay at home and bring me a fucking beer@! (kidding! I love you baby)

OTOH, as a Chinese national, my wife, with her college degree, is only in a position to make about $100 or so a month working 6 days a week with only very limited vacation time and stuff like that. My American passport is worth 10x it's weight in gold.

In the big picture though....I'd rather it was a European passport. I'd have the same benefits but with the additional knowledge that my kids would be able to get a college education and not be crippled by the debt like I am. If it wasn't for that college debt I could damn near just retire out here and enjoy the good life. I could make bi-annual trips back home and set up seminars and all that shit but no, every last penny of what could have been disposable income goes to college debt until I am an old man.

Fuck that shit. I soooo regret having gone to college.

Steve,

I have thought about that point because even Nixon said that he was shocked how little power he really had over things once he got in...and that was a dude in control. But Obama hasn't even taken action on the little things. How about "Don't Ask Don't Tell"? He could just shut that shit down by executive order. Why the chickenshit stance on that? He can't denounce torture? Isn't he the Commander In Chief? Is it really beyond his ability to get us out of Afghanistan and Iraq?

I don't buy it.

[yieldingxxx]

If I could vote for an actual socialist, I would do so in a heartbeat. Every positive single issue that has gone down in defeat has done so at the hands of corporate interests. I do not want to live in a plutocracy. The standard of living, chance for economic advancement, room for creative development and for decent "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is VASTLY better in any of the social democracies out there across the water.

Did you know that the US does not lead the world in new patents. I thought it was Germany but I googled it just to make sure....CHINA is set to be the new world leader in innovation and new technology. WTF!?! They are taking the lead from Japan. The US isn't even in the running.

Yes. I'll take a little socialism with my Democracy, Thank you very much. Why anyone would vote against greater social equality, stronger economic growth and a higher standard of living for themselves is beyond me.

Oh man, you said it all right there as far as I'm concerned. It's hilarious how folks like Buddy, or shall I say folks who express sentiments like him, think 'big government' is the problem while they completely ignore the systematic Corporate raping of our entire economy. It's been a slow and steady deathmarch beginning with Reagan and continues on today tenfold. These 'misguided' folks think we need to stop 'big government' in its tracks and then what? Allow corporations, manufacturing, services, industry, etc., to offshore and outsource every single job they can get their hands on, meanwhile these very same people advocate pushing to privatize our public local/federal services all in the name of ‘individual freedoms’ (what a joke that is) which will eventually mean even MORE outsourcing and more raping of American workers all in the name of corporate profit.

How UnPatriotic and UnAmerican is that? Why do these ‘free market’ types hate America and the American workers so much? They rap themselves in the American Flag, while chanting American exceptionalism, meanwhile they endorse and advocate the free market which is actually deteriorating our Society and causing much human misery in its wake. If anything, we really do need a more defined Democratic Socialist government to counterbalance the Corporate Fascists who are on the march. Capitalism has gone too far now and we need to rope it back in before it overtakes us all, and the only entity capable of doing that is …. You guessed it, government!

I'm not sure if these ‘individual freedoms’ people are misguided, misled, or just plain deaf dumb and blind, but whether they know it or not, they are part of the problem. Just as you said, America is no longer #1 in many many areas of industy and it has NOTHING to do with 'BIG GOVERNMENT' but everything to do with Corporate irregularities, corruption, deregulation and outsourcing. And eventually, for those of us who can keep a job here in the States, we'll all be working more for less and less money.

Truth be told, in most cases, our government is MORE a friend to the people than not, but it’s so obviously clear (at least to me) that these Corporations today with their goals of more and more profit no matter what the cost to human suffering and misery are the real culprits of our economic woes. But I guess it’s just easier to rally the nincompoomp’s around 1 line sound bites like “Big Government” and “Socialism” like FOX NEWS parrots almost every single day.

BTW, the closest thing we have to a Democratic Socialist in the Senate is Vermont's Bernie Sanders - The guy is top notch; one of the best representatives, if not THE best "we the people" could ever hope for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders

[Dmitri]

these ‘free market’ types
...
these ‘individual freedoms’ people

As opposed to "these 'controlled market' types" and "these 'government knows better' people"...

Hmm, which 'types' and 'people' I'd rather deal with?
Here's a couple of representatives. Should I choose the one with the beard, or the one without?
Choices, choices...

[yieldingxxx]

I see. My choice is between Karl Marx or Jefferson the slave owner. Come on man! I gotta disagree with you there Dmitri, unless I misunderstand your point.... Do you actually believe a CEO has your best interest at heart over an elected government official? That's just crazy if that's what you mean. At the very least, we can vote out our elected officials, but CEO's.... fagettaboutit! I'm on the side of government because I understand that government does a lot of good for the average American in so many ways that most people don't even understand.