Israel, in case you missed it

[zenshiite]

^Who gives a shit what kind of money an occupying colonialist force has spent on building infrastructure to steal the homes and lands of a people? That's the shoddiest rationalization I've ever heard.

[Darthwing Teorist]

At any rate, I agree with yusuf that one brick at a time is better than nothing. And, I happen to like yusuf, which on a broader scale, as Arabs and Jews have daily, non-hostile dealings with one another, is the best way to bring down walls.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

^Who gives a shit what kind of money an occupying colonialist force has spent on building infrastructure to steal the homes and lands of a people? That's the shoddiest rationalization I've ever heard.

You are a little exacerbated today?

Nobody stole anything. If you know anything at all about the history, you know that.

West bank was lost to Jordan in the 1967 war.
Egypt made peace with Israel and negotiated the Sinai back through that.
West bank was part of Jordan.

What is Jordan doing to negotiate that back with Israel?
You tell me?

And many people give a shit who put the water and roads there. Especially the people who paid for it, developed it and made the land somewhat useful because of it. Should they take that all away in the event that Jordan negotiates a peace and the land back? Should Jordan pay fair compensation for the money Israel has invested in the region?

Don't just shit out your anger about it, if these discussions are going to be brought up, then lets discuss.

If you are looking for a "let's hate on jews" bandwagon, you will not find that with me.

If you are looking for sympathy for the cultural practices of Islam, you are not going to get a lot of nods from anyone in a western liberal democracy except where those practices are peaceful and useful, unlike the theocratic laws etc, which are as far as most of the west is concerned to be utter nonsense and the sticking point in dealing with Islamic nations.

They have a tendency to not be able to separate matters of church and state with any consistency or clarity.
The arabs should have accepted the 2 state solution right from teh beginning.

To even think that Israel should not have and be a Jewish state is off the table. It's not going to happen, ever, so lets move on from that. Who will negotiate for teh west bank, who will pay Israel for the infrastructure they have built there? Who?

[zenshiite]

Colonialists don't tend to get compensated for the money they invest in their colonial adventurism when the people they have wronged finally push them out. Why should Palestinians, who don't want to be under the political domination of Jordan any more than they do Israel, be expected to pay for Israel's investment in illegal occupation and settlement activity? Any way you slice it, Israel's occupation and settlement of the West Bank was illegal from the get according to international law. That's it. Period. It was illegal in 1967 for a country to invade and seize land. The whole project is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

As for "the Arabs should have accepted the two state solution from the start," their option was to accept a two state solution that left them with shit land and still pushed out of their homes. Furthermore, the "solution" was offered by an imperialist power that was immorally, if not illegally, occupying and governing those people in the first place. The Palestinians have rightly seen the whole affair as trading one foreign occupier for another.

Lastly, your little bullshit statement about a "let's hate on Jews" bandwagon. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. This isn't about Jews or Muslims. Many Palestinians are Christians as well as Muslims. They are given an equally shitty deal as far as this whole situation goes. This is a matter of justice and of Europeans foisting their collective guilt about their treatment of Jews in their lands upon the shoulders of a people disconnected from their deeds. It wouldn't matter to me if the occupiers with Jews or Turks, or whatever. If the Palestinian people were getting a raw deal from other Muslims I'd uphold their cause. Just as I am anti-Taliban, anti-Saudi etc. So take your veiled accusation of "anti-Semitism" and shove it up your ass. That's a favored canard of anyone who doesn't like to see Israel criticized, and one that's been used upon Jews who are critical I might add.

[Iskendar]

Iskendar,
Yet, there are a number of nations that belong to Arabs, and nations that belong to Celts -- by heritage, conquest and retention. Jews as an ethno-religious entitity have Israel, and it does not matter whether all Jews have a consensus.

Every nation its own country, how very 19th century We're still recovering from that one, but the bloody meme just won't die...

Haven't you heard the expression, "Two Jews, three opinions"?

No, but I must have heard "Two ****, three opinions". Its fairly universal.

And just because you don't understand cultural subtleties that are not your own, does not give you the right to so easily dismiss the brinkmanship and so-called "game of chicken" as a natural and normal way for certain cultures to do business. I did not say that I support or agree with the Israeli way of doing this (the expanding of West Bank settlements); I said only that I understand it, and what is driving it beneath the surface that the world sees. You can opine away, but you are opining without having the full story, like so many others.

Two things: 1. "They don't think like we do" is a very dangerous line of thinking, as is "these people only understand strength". Cultural awareness is important, but when trying to come to an agreement, you need to look for things in common, not differences. Besides, it becomes oh so very easy to turn the table: displaying strength may not be very useful towards peace, but it seems to be a hell of an effective election strategy for Israeli politicians. Think about that. 2. Don't assume what people know and what people don't know. Nobody has the full story, not even those smack in the middle of it, least of all those on the frontlines. That's the nature of conflict: fog of war and all... I don't claim to be an expert on the conflict or on Arab cultural peculiarities (don't get fooled by the username), but I do my best to get my info from diverse sources, not just the bleeding heart fluffy "oh-those-poor-Palestinians" crowd (who are pretty useless at analysis anyway). There's quite a few hardliners who think the Israeli approach to the problem is bloody useless, and mostly catering to internal tastes instead of aiming at a resolution of the conflict.

I stated before that I believe in a two-state agreement, with Jerusalem as an international city governed and protected by a council and forces comprised of peaceful representatives from around the world, including Israel and Palestine.

Cool. So we agree on what matters.

At any rate, I agree with yusuf that one brick at a time is better than nothing. And, I happen to like yusuf, which on a broader scale, as Arabs and Jews have daily, non-hostile dealings with one another, is the best way to bring down walls.

Oh I luvz y'allz too! Group hug indeed! ;P

P.S. To Chris: Interloper's a chick, so that makes group hugs totally non-gay

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Colonialists don't tend to get compensated for the money they invest in their colonial adventurism when the people they have wronged finally push them out. Why should Palestinians, who don't want to be under the political domination of Jordan any more than they do Israel, be expected to pay for Israel's investment in illegal occupation and settlement activity? Any way you slice it, Israel's occupation and settlement of the West Bank was illegal from the get according to international law. That's it. Period. It was illegal in 1967 for a country to invade and seize land. The whole project is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

You are wrong here. Israel did not invade, they were attacked by others and pushed all of them back and in the end held the territories of west bank as well as the Sinai. When the armies moved into the area to attack Israel, the people of west bank moved away to allow the armies military access through on their attack of Israel. Unfortunately for them, they failed to destroy Israel and lost those lands in the ensuing battle. I don't know about you, but it is always my understanding that wars rewrite maps. I mean, Poland didn't even exist until after ww1 and neither did a lot of other European countries. Territories and boundaries are changed by war. If the Palestinians who don't want to be Jordanians...even though, they were want to start up their own state then why aren't they making the purchases and writing their drafts as Israel did? Most of Israel was actually bought prior to the declaration of Israel as a sovereign nation. So, are you saying that the Palestinians who were Jordanians should just be given carte blanche and allowed to take whatever lands form Israel they like? So, as a recap, Israel didn't invade anyone and to say so is a horribly twisted redaction of what happened and you know it. Your argument sounds like Jew hating sour grapes more than anything else.

As for "the Arabs should have accepted the two state solution from the start," their option was to accept a two state solution that left them with shit land and still pushed out of their homes. Furthermore, the "solution" was offered by an imperialist power that was immorally, if not illegally, occupying and governing those people in the first place. The Palestinians have rightly seen the whole affair as trading one foreign occupier for another.

That's not true either. You are making that up because the two state solution was offered right at the beginning and on top of that, who offered what land to whom? Try to think before spewing your angry nonsense man. that is so out of whack with what is recorded as having happened i don't know where to begin.

Lastly, your little bullshit statement about a "let's hate on Jews" bandwagon. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit. This isn't about Jews or Muslims. Many Palestinians are Christians as well as Muslims. They are given an equally shitty deal as far as this whole situation goes. This is a matter of justice and of Europeans foisting their collective guilt about their treatment of Jews in their lands upon the shoulders of a people disconnected from their deeds. It wouldn't matter to me if the occupiers with Jews or Turks, or whatever. If the Palestinian people were getting a raw deal from other Muslims I'd uphold their cause. Just as I am anti-Taliban, anti-Saudi etc. So take your veiled accusation of "anti-Semitism" and shove it up your ass. That's a favored canard of anyone who doesn't like to see Israel criticized, and one that's been used upon Jews who are critical I might add.

Yes, this is about hating Jews and hating that the Jews have a Jewish state and that it's nestled in the midst of a great deal of Islamic states just all in your face there. You keep going on about Palestinians this and Palestinians that. Why aren't they purchasing, and drafting a declaration of their own? You tell me why the Palestinians instead choose to elect a terror organization in Gaza. You tell me why they insist on lobbing explosives into Israel. You tell me why they keep taking payments from Israel? You tell me why they seem to be incapable of governing themselves with any sort of vision or peaceful attribution at all.

By the way, Jews, who call themselves Israeli and were there from the get go are Palestinians too. The people of Israel, who are the Israeli Jews are also Palestinian by default. What of them? What about what they say?

Why would I say in anyway you are an anti-Semite? That's a scam, they are all Semites in the region as far as I know. Whether they are Jew or Muslim, for the most part they are Semitic. With the exception of the Moors and the eastern euro imported Jews and the imported Ethiopian Jews.

[zenshiite]

Darth, I suggest you actually read up on the situation before spout some revisionist bullshit. The United Nations has declared the settlement and occupation of the West Bank and Gaza to be violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention. I'm not sure how much more clear that gets.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I am fully aware of the situation zenshiite.
Here is the absolute latest information on it and it is an organic and ongoing process.

http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/qpal/docs/I ... nglish.pdf

Your reference is in article 8. There is review underway. There is mediation. There will be a solution.

[zenshiite]

I want to change the ball game a little bit here.

If Israel is to continue to exist as a Jewish state, and most importantly a Jewish state at peace(or at least tolerated by) with its neighbors, and most importantly with the very people that have staked a counter claim to the land that Israel was established on, the Palestinians, can Israel continue to be wide open to immigration for any and all Jews for every part of the globe? The Israelis claim they need the settlements in the West Bank and in East Jerusalem because of their growing population, and yet we know for a fact that Israeli birthrates are lower than Palestinians. Furthermore, we know that the settlements are one of the largest bones of contention in this whole thing and the suspension or not of settlement building is always a stumbling block with negotiations.

Can they continue to be open to immigration for all Jews and remain within the legally defined '67 borders? Or is that just unfeasible? Is there truly no room left in the existing boundaries of Israel that they "need" to cross borders and build on land that is recognized as being under the sovereignty of the Palestinian Authority? If that is the case, how can they continue to expand their population with open immigration for all Jews(as I understand immigration is not open like that for anyone else) and somehow avoid expanding their control of neighboring lands and thus not be in constant conflict with their neighbors over this?

[Darth Rock&Roll]

You could apply the question to any country really becasue population is up everywhere.

Also, everyone who was in the region, Jew, Muslim, Atheist or Christian was considered a Palestinian.
Even today, there are arab israelis, muslim israelis etc, but they are living within Israel which is a Jewish state.

the contention over west bank comes down to a couple of things:

1) does Jordan want to negotiate it back into their control as an occupied territory as it was.

2) shave it off of Isreal and make it the second state, perhaps include gaza and for that some concession for pre-existing settlements in west bank? or gaza for that matter? I mean, It's all under Israeli control as there is not as of yet any official Palestine and frankly I don't think they should even keep that name as it is a carry over pejorative word thanks to the romans and the ever so underhanded remarks of British military geniuses. lol

so, Jews and their population is not the problem, nor is it the issue. the Jews could make a billion more of themselves if they so desire.
If Isarel is arguing on a point of population or who paid for the infrastructure, then I'm sure those negotiation tactics can be changed.

The biggest effort will come in having the second state that was utterly rejected at the beginning of this to be accepted.
the Israeli's don't trust people who bomb their cafes and shoot rpgs into their lands so I don't think there's going to be any free immigration or passage and it may become necessary for Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to come onside of the otherwise dispossessed people of Israel, predominantly arabs.

bad blood won't go away for the wanting of that. there is a lot of work to be done and a lot of healing.
Bad feelings don't help any of it from either side and neither does bickering , whining etc.
The ballgame that needs to be changed isn't from here or anywhere outside of Israel really. It has to be supported.

Frankly, I think that we are all just agitators to some extent when it comes right down to it. None of us are Israeli after all, Jew arab or otherwise.

[yusuf]

something i came across on the interweb

[jaskey]

Gimme a break here Steve. LOL. Please don't compare 14th century apples to 21st century oranges.

Here's the bottom line.

In the middle east Israel is the ONLY democracy.
In some islamic nations, particularly in the most powerful of them (SA) Apostasy is still, to this day punsihable by death.

That means, if you deny Allah, you will be put to death by order of his majesty.

All the nations surrounding Israel have dismal conditions for the people. They are ruled by dictators or monarchs. They repress people quite solidly and not to mention human rights are an afterthought if any thought is given to them at all.

these are not forward thinking nations. These are backwards, tribal nations ruled with totalitarian practices. If it's not some monarch, then it's some mullah calling the shots.

that power structure is ancient and useless. But, the power elite of the middle east are who the real problem is. People for the most part just wanna chill, have some food and shelter and some pastimes. Comfort, raise a family in a safe place. Too few people running the huge geography of it all has the common people framed as tools or enemies of the state. You can't just be a person there, you are relegated to some cause or another.

Let's find the heads of the snakes I say, put the neck under the boot and do away with monarchs and religious leaders once and for all. Total revolution into a secular world. You can have your god, but keep it to yourself. That's the best way.

Actually I disagree. I'm not too well informed on the specific details on Israel, but it seemed like Brits promised Jewish people a land that was already populated with a group of people that already lives there. If China told your state that your state will now house all the extra population of their country and a huge amounts of Chinese came in and populated your neighborhood and set up their own government... actually you might love it, but your friends and family might not be too chill with that. There should not have been such a promise nor a gift of land without clearing it up with the locals first. So in the end both sides are victims of thoughtlessness.

It does suck that if you do not believe in the national faith then you might be killed. HOWEVER, this does not justify elimination of that totalitarian government. It just mean there needs to be a humanity work that is required and we (the rest of the world nations) should encourage those laws to be repealed. not invade or force the change of government. Especially when 95%+ amount of people might be living in content peace in a religious government they have envisioned and wanted. Just because a land isn't democratic doesn't mean the people living in such a nation did not want the nation they have. plenty of ancient kingdoms before democracy have had people very happy to live in their own kingdoms you know. also I don't think the people there are so badly treated as we like to believe. Most of the middle eastern nations are quite peaceful I'm sure. I think it's a big problem thinking that not being like US means that they are unhappy. people do not need democracy or capitalism to be happy!

[Peacedog]

xxxx

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Actually I disagree. I'm not too well informed on the specific details on Israel, but it seemed like Brits promised Jewish people a land that was already populated with a group of people that already lives there. If China told your state that your state will now house all the extra population of their country and a huge amounts of Chinese came in and populated your neighborhood and set up their own government... actually you might love it, but your friends and family might not be too chill with that. There should not have been such a promise nor a gift of land without clearing it up with the locals first. So in the end both sides are victims of thoughtlessness.

It does suck that if you do not believe in the national faith then you might be killed. HOWEVER, this does not justify elimination of that totalitarian government. It just mean there needs to be a humanity work that is required and we (the rest of the world nations) should encourage those laws to be repealed. not invade or force the change of government. Especially when 95%+ amount of people might be living in content peace in a religious government they have envisioned and wanted. Just because a land isn't democratic doesn't mean the people living in such a nation did not want the nation they have. plenty of ancient kingdoms before democracy have had people very happy to live in their own kingdoms you know. also I don't think the people there are so badly treated as we like to believe. Most of the middle eastern nations are quite peaceful I'm sure. I think it's a big problem thinking that not being like US means that they are unhappy. people do not need democracy or capitalism to be happy!

The British Mandate in Palestine ended. the British didn't give land to anyone. Following the war, Palestinian Jews and Jews from the diaspora set about buying up land all through the British mandate. By the time 47-48 rolled around, the people had actually purchase enough land that the official announcement of Independence could be made. As it was the end of WW2 and the Jews of the world faced yet more persecution and pogrom like treatment all round, denied entry into the USA, Canada and elsewhere, what was the alternative at that point in time? Anyway, The British didn't give the land to Israel is the long and short of it.

So, that whole perspective on it is skewed at the start and yes, you are correct, you are not well informed on the specific details of Israel clearly. No offense.

Nobody will kill you for not being a Jew in Israel, but try denouncing Islam in Saudi Arabia or any so called Islamic republic and see what happens, at best you'll be publicly whipped, at worst, you'll lose your head, simply for denying religion.

I don't think the Arab Palestinians are treated well by their Gaza government of Hamas anyway who set up weapons in school yards and hide in the civilian populace after they commit their acts of terror? Yeah, that's gotta change.

As for how do Islamic states treat their people, well, if you get exposed to it, It will likely be somewhat of a shock to your western sensibilities. Religious police patrol the streets of Riyadh, looking for indiscretions. People who mess around in a weak moment can be hanged or stoned to death.

The arab world is a hot mess by our standards.

[jaskey]

Darth, I see that I was ill informed. And there was no offense taken by the correction. Actually I'm glad I have more accurate information now. I was told that during WWII Brits have promised Jewish people the land of Israel in turn for their support. But buying up lands like that will still not help with the poorer or even middle class natives who gets stuck with foreign rule in matter of less than a decade. I still think the buying of Israel was badly planned, or not even really planned out at all. If Mexico bought a chunk of Texas and made it part of their country, Texans living there will not be happy. (although the elites and the state that was paid for the land will not have any problems with that.) Once again I'm not saying it's any one side's fault but it was thoughtlessness that brought on this grief.

I once again do not think it is all of theocratic arabic nations that are so brutal. A good amount of theocracy might be brutal in it's reinforcement of it's state religion, but you can not say all of theocracy is bad and should be torn down just because of few of it's members. (or maybe be majority, but still you can not tear them all down.) Also the people, and once again correct me if I am wrong, can move out of such a country. I mean it sucks to do so, but when 90%+ are content with such a form of government you can't just change everything for that remaining 10%. I think the new health care bill would be a good example. if there were about 10% of people who did not like the health care bill so much, they can not force the bill to be taken down. Even in democracy we recognize this. So simply (although I realize it's not such a simple task) leave the country. I have had quite a few Islamic friends in US, so I believe leaving the country is possible. And they don't have to necessarily move as far as US, they just have to cross the boarder(s) to more liberal country. I realize this might be a quite a task, but not a impossible thing. But then again if they felt so strongly about their religion as to die by it then lie about practicing the state government I think this is a viable option.