China & North Korea

[Ron Panunto]

Why in hell does China support North Korea? North Korea fired missiles on a South Korean fishing village killing at least four civilians, and the Chinese are still backing them. Even the Russians think the NK's have gone too far.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

China may not have as much leash on Kim as we are lead to believe.
But I think that China fundamentally backs them because they are useful to China.

a) they provide a naughty little brother for China to scold on behalf of the west
b) they provide a better image for the Chinese authoritarian regime by making it look a little softer.
c) they provide a proxy force to cause trouble for western interests

fwiw the Korean war is not over and was never declared over. It is merely in a state of dormancy and it will still need resolution.

[Darthwing Teorist]

Strategery, probably.

[bailewen]

Why in hell does China support North Korea?

In what way specifically, do you mean?

Moral support?
Diplomatic support?
Is China supplying humanitarian aid?
Is China supplying weapons?

I really honestly don't know what the context is here for a term as vague as "support.

My reflex reaction (could be totally wrong) is that people are just talking about the kind of language China uses in the international news arena regarding N. Korea. If that is the case, then I would have to ask, "As opposed to what?" Sabre ratting and threats? North Korean is not much farther from Beijing than it is from that fishing village. Beijing can't really afford to have antagonistic relations with a nuclear power that is closer to it's capital than Florida is to ours.

a) they provide a naughty little brother for China to scold on behalf of the west
b) they provide a better image for the Chinese authoritarian regime by making it look a little softer.
c) they provide a proxy force to cause trouble for western interests

a. They are actually more typically a mediator between N. Korea and "the west". China has enormous national interests in maintaining good relations with N.Korea. See my point above about having a nuclear power on your border.
b. This point is probably true but hardly a primary factor in their relations with Pyongyang. More like a fringe benefit.
c. Again, N. Korea's constant instability is a source of constant trouble for Beijing. There is no reason for them to use N. Korea in this was. They much prefer stable, quiet neigbors.

[yusuf]

Now now Omar, please don;t let the facts get in the way ..

[BaguaBoxer]

The China apologists circle the wagons.

[Steve James]

Goes back to the Korean War. MacArthur wanted to take back all of Korea, using nuclear weapons if necessary. China saw that as a threat, and that the US would continue to advance into China. So, the N. Koreans got Chinese support (meaning men and machines) to prevent what they saw as US aggression. The only reason N. Korea exists is because of Chinese support. Now it's no longer men and machines; but it was clearly how the North got nuclear weapons. That's the real threat today. There have always been probes and attacks by the N. Koreans on the border, usually they are less provocative than missiles.

[Ron Panunto]

Goes back to the Korean War. MacArthur wanted to take back all of Korea, using nuclear weapons if necessary. China saw that as a threat, and that the US would continue to advance into China. So, the N. Koreans got Chinese support (meaning men and machines) to prevent what they saw as US aggression. The only reason N. Korea exists is because of Chinese support. Now it's no longer men and machines; but it was clearly how the North got nuclear weapons. That's the real threat today. There have always been probes and attacks by the N. Koreans on the border, usually they are less provocative than missiles.

Well they also torpedoed a S. Korean ship a few months back killing more than a hundred sailors.

[Steve James]

Yes, haven't kept up, but that is the claim --and I'd believe it. There have been more deaths than that. Still doesn't change the reason why China (PRC) assisted NK during the war and generally supports them now. NK is clearly a buffer zone from the west.
[Edit] Btw, that's not to say I think either the PRC or NK is in the right. I'm just pointing out the history].

[Darth Rock&Roll]

NK as a nuclear power is a joke. Canada is more able than them in that arena and we have exactly zero bombs of the nuke variety.
But, we can whip em up and strap em to an icbm in a couple of weeks whereas NK is primitive at best with their version of it.

They may have an atomic bomb, they have no delivery systems for it.
I think it's a lot of politics and rhetoric.
NK should have been reintegrated with SK long ago. They are not kept apart by Kim.
They are not kept apart by any particular power they have themselves.

NK= China's puppet while SK = USA puppet.

All Koreans are abused politically in this fashion.
If SK had their own set of balls, they would have beaten the shit out of NK and kept going until done.
they are both political tools though and therefore do not captain their own ships and as true sovereign nations....well they aren't.

[Steve James]

If SK had their own set of balls, they would have beaten the shit out of NK and kept going until done.

Well, they didn't even have their own army. It would have been the Allies that would/could have beaten the shit out of NK, except that the Chinese committed millions of men. "Kept going" is exactly why the Chinese sent troops. Afa a "nuclear power", NK is not a threat to the US; but it is a concern to SK.

[chud]

Why in hell does China support North Korea?

In what way specifically, do you mean?

China provides financial support to North Korea.

[bailewen]

The China apologists circle the wagons.

That is a really lazy way to avoid considering the facts of the situation. Just dismiss it all as "Chinese apologists". When you have an actual argument, come back an we can discuss.

NK as a nuclear power is a joke. Canada is more able than them in that arena and we have exactly zero bombs of the nuke variety.

It is as far as shooting anything across the Pacific Ocean is concerned but they only need to lob it across the northern border. Again, Beijing is only like 500 miles away.

Thank you Chud for actually answering my question.

I'd say still pretty much for the reasons listed above. A better way of answering the question is to look at the alternative. Rather than some knee-jerk flower power response about how China shouldn't be cozying up to such mean people (when has that ever stopped us?) even the most superficial look at their national interests makes it pretty blatantly clear why they would support them.

- As was the case in the past, N. Korea is still a handy buffer state between China and American allied S. Korea.
- A (more) stable N. Korea is a (more) predictable N. Korea and you don't want unpredictable out of control failed states on your border, especially nuclear ones. Sorry Darth, they are no nuclear threat to the world community but to the states north and south of their borders....?
- What has N. Korea ever done to piss off China? Historically, China has always gone to great efforts to make peace with it's border states. A few border disputes here and there have cropped up but they've generally been pretty peaceable to anyone who hasn't harrassed them. Even the Rand Corp. backs me up on this one.

Complaining about it is hopelessly Pollyanna. May as well complain about our support of the Saudi's ... or any one of the south American Dictators we've set up over the years...or Sadaam even while it was still convenient.

[chud]

Historically, China has always gone to great efforts to make peace with it's border states.

What about Tibet?

[bailewen]

That's a good point but also kind of disingenuous.

Most people don't realize how big Tibet is and how under-developed it was at the time of the invasion and still is today. It accounts for nearly 1/3 of the entire geographic area of China. It's at least triple the size of Texas. It also sits on the border between China and India, another western ally in the cold war and one that ended up nuclear in a much more serious way than N.Korea. So Tibet has ENOURMOUS strategic importance, ENOURMOUS gas and mineral resources (which China is starved for) and was existing in the mid 20th century in a state of technological development equivalent to the native American's of the 1800's. I honestly don't believe that it is possible for such a state to exist in modern times.

You would be enormously hard pressed to mount an argument that the US would not have done the same thing. It's not like they even had to go to war for it. It was a pre-20th century feudal theocracy three times the size of Texas sitting on the border between China and and an enemy state.

Lastly, their historical claims are legitimate. Kind of irrelevant but not made up. link It's not the first time China has encompassed Tibet. Yuan Dynasty mainly but it's gone back and forth.

Even before the communists though, Tibets international status in the late 19th/early 20th century was an open question:
http://stason.org/TULARC/travel/tibet/B ... y-164.html



IMO, what "killed" Tibet was not communism so much as the invention of the airplane. The invasion of Tibet is perfectly analogous to the American extermination of native peoples except that the Chinese, ironically, have done a vastly better job of preserving the original culture. That's not to say that they did a good job, it's just that we set the bar so incredibly low.