WTF is wrong with you Americans?

[jonathan.bluestein]

My condolences to the victims of the most recent massacre, and their families.

Ashe wrote the following on facebook after the incident:
"Gun control is NOT the problem. NOT, NOT, NOT. My grandfather was born in 1917. He used to tell me stories about how all the boys would bring their rifles TO SCHOOL so they could hunt squirrels on the way home. Nobody was getting shot. Our problem is a society that is pumping out people so full of anger, so hopelessly deranged, overwhelmed and unbalanced they feel driven to lash out in such a way. THIS is the issue we need to address."

My response and comparison to this, and also in general in relation to crime and personal-security in the States:

In Israel there is no 'right to bear arms', and people have to go through a very tedious process to get a weapons license. Additionally, one cannot purchase automatic weapons. We have never had any mass-murders of any kind, except by Muslim terrorists. We also don't have serial killers, and while there are serial-rapists, they appear at a rate of perhaps one per year, at most. When I was a policeman and had access to police intelligence, I've come to know that the biggest crime organizations/families in Israel had only a few dozen people in them who actively worked together. I can't recall anyone being cut-up into many pieces, or any use of automatic weapons by people who weren't hardcore criminals. Even among the criminals, pistols are usually the furthest measure they'd go to, though there have been exceptions. Since adolescence, I've been going anywhere I wanted at hours like 3-4AM, without having to fear for my life or safety. Also, contrary to popular belief, Israelis don't live in fear or panic of the ongoing military conflicts. You'd think that my situation is good, but there are places in Europe and Canada in which it's much better.

I'm really into American culture, and have been since early youth. I'm still puzzled by what I constantly see happening in the U.S. every week. WTF is wrong with this nation? More disturbingly even - why can't any American provide a reasonable answer to this question?

Had you asked me what's wrong with Israeli mentality and social issues, how did these issues arise, and what could be done about them, I could've written a book-long answer. Still, it seems that Americans can't really explain much of the shit that goes up in their own country. One of my favourite documentaries is Bowling for Columbine, and as much as I like it, it too does not really explain the root of the problem - what makes so many people in the states lose their fucking minds and do the craziest shit one can think of.

Does anyone here have a decent answer? I'd really appreciate it, since this thing has been on my mind for a long time.

[npc]

nothing is wrong america is the best country

[Bao]

nothing is wrong america is the best country if you are white, educated and rich

Fixed!

[bailewen]

rofl...

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. I must admit, I am a little surprised it was Ashe but hey...American's can be kind of weird sometimes. I was intentionally not bringing up the gun control issue on the thread about the killings.

I must say though, recently I have seen some argumentation that is bringing me over to Ashe's point of view. I'm certainly not in favor of any kind of special gun rights protection. That shit is insane. The part I am changing my thinking on was brought on my Steven Pinker's stuff on violence. You can search youtube for his Ted Talk to get the short version. I am currently reading his book, "The Better Angels Of Our Nature". I'm starting to be convinced that gun laws really are pretty inconsequential. They are a symptom, not a cause. The issue is that America is a particularly violent country. We have like 3rd world violence levels but, and this is the key, historically, gun control laws tend to follow changes in violent trends. ie. we will probably have to wait for gun violence to go waaaay down and then after the culture has changed we will start passing the laws to enforce the new status quo.

It's a bit like how marajuana has been legalized recently in Washington and...uh...Colorado? In Washington, it had been decriminalized for years. Police departments have already had official policies of making pot arrests very low priority. That had been the case for nearly a decade before they just made it official.

The laws generally always follow the culture with a pretty significant lag. There are exceptions (civil rights being a notable one) but there's just no moral outrage about gun ownership. Anyways, it gives me hope. There's some weird conditions that have caused the US to lag so far behind the rest of the civilized world in terms of grouwing out of our violent begginings but I expect the culture will eventually mature and catch up with the rest of the civilized world.

[Giles]

If all the primary school teachers had been carrying a weapon, preferably a small submachine gun, then this terrible massacre would never have happened. They would have stopped the sonofabitch in his tracks. Arm the teachers. Arm the janitors. Preferably arm the child class representatives as well, after suitable training. The only solution to this issue is to make sure the good people have guns, too. And better guns, at that.

. . .

[Strange]

this type of argument/rhetoric is essentially masturbatory and evasive.
meaning sound nice and can take no action on gun control.

it dun work, mer'cans have many school grounds shootings to prove that.

[bailewen]

Well back in the frontier days most everybody had a gun and there were far fewer shootings back then....oh wait. . .

[Muad'dib]

China and Japan just have knife attacks on schools instead. Obviously guns are the cause of school attacks.

[jonathan.bluestein]

These posts were interesting but are still missing the point... Isn't there anyone in America doing research on the real reasons this country is so psychologically messed up? Yeah, you and I can see that people are acting crazy, but why??

China and Japan just have knife attacks on schools instead.

With the Chinese I don't find it surprising, as they have been brainwashing people to believe that violence is the answer for decades. At least in America, there is an effort by the school system and (I suppose) most parents that their children won't be violent. In China, physical violence is absolutely mainstream - much more than in any other country I've seen, possibly beside among the Palestinians (And before you say this is political, I urge you to spend a week in any Palestinian city and reach the same conclusions for yourselves. This usually occurs on the first or second night, hearing the melody of automatic weapons firing; to be followed by some random street fighting here and there, the occasional 60MPH on small streets by car thieves and the interesting observation that everyone carries weapons although it's illegal; and I ain't talking of Gaza - ANY Palestinian city). (Back to the Chinese) I remember being astounded at how violent Chinese women were. I knew a 21 year old woman who looked rather shy and timid. She saw her (Western) ex-boyfriend at a party with a new girl about two weeks after they broke up. She followed by breaking a glass bottle on that other girl's head. I also saw people cursing and shouting and fighting on the street a lot, a no one cared - quite the contrary - people gathered to watch the 'show'. My friend told me of when they went to the Tianjin zoo, and people were throwing all kinds of shit at the animals, sometimes hurting them and laughing it off. No one cared. So I'm basically surprised there that gun massacres aren't more common in China. Or perhaps they are and we just don't hear about it.

[bailewen]

These posts were interesting but are still missing the point... Isn't there anyone in America doing research on the real reasons this country is so psychologically messed up? Yeah, you and I can see that people are acting crazy, but why??

I already referenced this in my last post:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_sjosc0r1w

In his book, he does go into why America is lagging behind the rest of the civilized world in violence reduction. In chapter 3 he provides a chart of the US with homicide rates by region and you can see that US violence is largely regional. Ironically, the most violent states are also the most pro-gun. If you just take northern states, US homicide rates are comparable to most of Europe. The farther south you go, the more violent it gets. It's not just gun violence. Assaults with knifes, baseball bats etc are just as out of control as gun violence. I don't have time to get into the details but he highlights one theory which has to do with which immigrant populations originally settled which regions and what sort of industry was there. Certain occupations and ethnic groups tend to lean towards a "cultur of honor" which, in turn, leads to a lot of violence, guns, knives or fists. Seriously, if you are interested in this subject, pick up a copy of Pinker's book. Otherwise, at least watch a couple of his lectures on the subject.

[bailewen]

... So I'm basically surprised there that gun massacres aren't more common in China. Or perhaps they are and we just don't hear about it.

Well, our pro-gun friends in the States may have a hard time with this but . .. .drum roll. . .

There's no gun massacres here because there's essentially no guns. Even the police aren't generally armed. In general, only the military carries firearms.

[Interloper]

Israel is a very tiny country with far fewer people than the humungous USA with 300 million+ people. Our system is a huge bureaucracy populated by administrators and workers with varying degrees of competency and ethicality. A lot... a LOT of individuals slip through the cracks. Symptoms of mental illness, emotional disorders, pent-up rage and other dangerous conditions are seldom seen or acted upon by families and community-level agencies. Sometimes a caring teacher or school psychologist, clergy person or other individual notices and intervenes, but help is often not available or incompetent at the institutional level (unless the family is wealthy and can afford private care).

Usually nothing is "done" until someone goes berserk. Then everyone is horrified, a few people form groups to address the issue, but generally we all go back to the daily struggle.

Society here is just too big to address the issues fully; on the grassroots/local level, there is not enough public education and awareness beyond small community groups. It has to be a mass effort, or else another situation will pop up somewhere.

[Muad'dib]

I'm really into American culture, and have been since early youth. I'm still puzzled by what I constantly see happening in the U.S. every week. WTF is wrong with this nation? More disturbingly even - why can't any American provide a reasonable answer to this question?

1. Being "really into American culture" means basically nothing. I was a fan of Japanese culture before I lived in Japan. It was easy. What did I know about Japanese culture, but things viewed through the poor filter of the media. Anime, Samurai, Ninja, Tea Ceremony, etc. When I lived there the first time, I realized that my perception of Japanese culture was not out of line with reality, it was in a completely different reality altogether. What you see in the media is not the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the culture of another country. It is a computer generated orc, a Harryhausen skeleton, an image of something that does not exist. So when you say you are really into American Culture, what you are saying is "I know not of what I speak."

2. "I'm still puzzled by what I constantly see happening in the U.S. every week." Because every week you read news stories about Americans who donate their time and money to charity, who reach out to help their neighbor in a time of need, who drop a dollar to the salvation army, donate old stuffed animals to Toys for Tots, help out at the soup kitchen, help elderly women across the street, mentor kids from the Inner City? Yes, I am puzzled by what I "see happening in the U.S." from afar. I am puzzled because if I did not have the benefit of living in the U.S., and not just one section, but many regions, I too would wonder what you are wondering.

3. "WTF is wrong with this nation?" People in all societies develop psychoses. It is not limited to the U.S. Americans did not wander around saying stupid shit about Swedes or other countries where mass shootings occur. So please, have some dignity. If you can't manage that, then follow another basic maxim "If you don't have anything good to say, then say nothing at all." Or as I like to put it... "Shut the fuck up."

4. "Why can't any American provide a reasonable answer to this explanation?"
As Dio stated, you come from a small nation. "American Culture" is a misnomer. There is no single culture in the U.S. What drove the VA Tech Shooter to kill is not the same as what drove the Joker Shooter, nor the same as the kids in Columbine. If there is a unified cause, it is isolation and mental illness, and this is something that occurs within all cultures, even yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

[Steve James]

Society here is just too big to address the issues fully; on the grassroots/local level, there is not enough public education and awareness beyond small community groups. It has to be a mass effort, or else another situation will pop up somewhere.

Well, the idea of "society" in the US is the opposite of what it is in Israel. There, and in the Middle East and in many countries, but not all, the "society" perceives itself as connected by "blood." In the U.S., and most of the Americas, "society" is disconnected by blood (and for many years by law). The settlers and pioneers united against the "others" (some who still have their own nations within US borders), and also against themselves based on their differences. So, we have (or hear) ideologies that support those views. When translated into "public" things, we constantly hear the argument that "we can't afford to pay." Well, that's why institutions are closed and people with problems face them on their own. That old saying about taking a village to raise a child isn't really a metaphor, and it was the way it used to be many places in the US. I can recall when the US, at least NYC, was relatively safe. But, that's talking about crime. Mass murdering were also unheard of hear, until an incident at a Texas college. At least, that was the first time "we" actually considered a crime done by an ordinary guy to be a "mass murder." Massacres weren't new in America.

I agree it has to be a mass effort. But, I don't think that will stop incidents like this from happening. I think that the effort will help us cope.

[jonathan.bluestein]

Omar-

Thanks for the link, will watch.


Steve - very good insight. Thanks.


Muad'dib -

My exposure to American culture goes far beyond how myself and other Westerners get exposed to Asian cultures. I've been to the U.S. twice in my life, month+ each time, and lived in the home of two American families for a week each (Tennessee). My uncle has been living in the states lecturing as a professor of Biomedical Engineering for over 20 years. American culture IS my culture - I'd dare say that about 50% of 'culture' among secular Israelis, if not more, is Western culture (as in non-Jewish), and most of it is Americanized in Israel's case. My mother was a private English teacher, and I have for years now been reading almost exclusively in English, apart from news and law cases (and I read a lot). Most of the movies I watch, the series I see and the music I listen to are American. I've also personally known countless Americans in my lifetime, with one having been my guest sleeping in my room for 2 weeks just recently. You cannot compare me to an American who has been studying Chinese or Japanese cultures from a distance. This is not the same case at all.

I also know very well of the good things happening in America. It just wasn't the topic of discussion, so I didn't think things like charity were related. I have adopted American culture exactly because it has many bright sides to it. I have not at all intended to attack it in general. I was very specifically addressing the issues with crime and psychopaths. I am sorry if I have offended you, but mine was not the intention to bash your culture or Americans. I love this country and I wrote what I did out of a real concern to what's happening.

I am well aware of the extreme exaggerations of the U.S. media. I am actually exposed to LESS violence in the U.S. than you do, since I don't watch or read U.S. news every day.

With all due respect to that psycho Goldstein and is horrendous actions, the fact remains that he's probably the only case in Israel's history that this has happened (by Jews). Additionally, similar, smaller-scale murders have always been religious or criminal based, and never a Jew-on-Jew thing. There are no mass-shooting or serial killers in Israel, and as far as I can remember, there probably hadn't been a serial rapist in quite a few years. Interloper's argument doesn't hold up either in my opinion, since that even at 8 million people, there should still be such criminals at large if this was a natural human phenomenon that one can see everywhere.

I'm not trying to say Israel is the best place in the world. We have other issues no less bothersome than your own, believe me. In many ways, the U.S. is a more enlightened place than Israel. I was making a comparison for the sake of seriously asking - what's up with those phenomenon in the U.S.? I was trying to fetch a psychological/sociological answer to that one, since I believe it's more probable that the answer lies in these fields of study. While it might be true, too, that most of these people have committed their mass-murders out of 'mental issues', I believe there must be a reason this has been happening so much over the last 30 years, and that they choose similar modes of action.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... otings-map