Ms.

[cdobe]

This is for native English speakers from various countries. A woman recently told me that Mrs and Miss are both no longer politically correct to use and today you would have to use "Ms.". I have never heard this word before in spoken English. In America people tend to say ma'am. So my question is, whether Ms. is really used by regular people in everyday life, or just by politicians, public employees and feminists?

[Michael]

The latter group. Only place I ever heard it was on teevee, and I knew a girl who went to Wellesley!

Also, there was Ms. magazine. Just more culture creation from the top down.

[Ralteria]

Obviously there is some difference in the regional areas of the States but Ms. or Miss is usually for younger women as it denotes being unmarried. If I was talking to a younger woman I would use Miss/Ms. (they are the same, Ms. is just an abbreviation). If i was talking to an older woman i would say ma'am. Mrs. is rarely used accept in formality as it's the denotation of a woman being married so you have to know the person before hand.

[cloudz]

Not so much, she's probably one of those very politically correct types. I've not come across people taking umbridge very much, it does slightly ring a bell, so maybe once.. With forms and the like you do see that option along with Mrs/Miss, I always thought it kinda pointless.. But 'have to' use Ms., that sounds way off.

Or, i'm just really really out of touch

[GrahamB]

Since you rarely say Mr, Mrs or Ms in spoken English in everyday life it doesn't really come up. Occasionally you'll see a woman's name written as Ms on a form, which will be there preference, but its pretty rare to be honest.

[middleway]

Miss = unmarried
Mrs = Married
Ms = divorced or widowed.

That's what we learnt way back in the mists of time when i was in primary school.

Certainly still in Primary school Miss is used for unmarried teachers, Mrs used for married teachers as my 'miss-es' is a gymnastics coach at local primary schools.

how right that is now ... i dunno!

[Steve James]

Ms. was promoted because there should be no reason that a woman has to announce her marital status, while a man does not. If someone writes a letter to "Barbara Owens," but has never met her, using Ms. is a way to play it safe rather than assume that she is a Miss or Mrs. So, Ms. is just a generic form of address for women the was Mr. is for me. One might ask why titles are necessary at all. Anyway, no one is forced to use the term or not. If a woman wants to, she just does.

[Ralteria]

One might ask why titles are necessary at all. Anyway, no one is forced to use the term or not.

Probably just left over terminology for employment/customer service.

"Of course Master Billingsworth, I'll have your meal ready momentarily"

It is pretty old hat though.

[Steve James]

Right. "Mister" is the unaccented form of "master," and "Mr." is just the abbreviation, as "Mrs." was the abbreviation for "mistress." Btw, in the U.S. at least, "Master" was used as a replacement honorific for a male child. Why that was, I don't know. Anyway, "master" as used in England (18th, 19th c) wasn't the same as "master" in the US at the same time. Here, a "master" was someone who owned slaves. In Europe, the honorific for someone of unknown title was/is "sir." Then there was "master" used as an adjective to describe a craftsman. So, if someone were an expert iron worker, his name might be Smith, and would be addressed as "Master Smith," which could be abbreviated to "Mr. Smith." In the US, which claimed to have a level society of equal "men," any man deserved the title of Mr. Otoh, not all women would want to be considered mistresses.

[Interloper]

"Mistress" is the female equivalent of "master" though colloquial English has reduced it to being a man's sexual partner outside of marriage. Same as "gay" still means cheerful and frolicsom, though the larger modern colloquial meaning is "homosexual."

"Ms." is the same as Mrs. and Miss... all derivatives of "mistress." It is a non-marital-status-specific title the way Mr is, and does not refer to a widowed or divorced woman. As Steve said, why should women have to reveal their marital status/availability, at least in cultures where we are no longer chattle.

[Steve James]

"Mistress" still means a "female master" though colloquial English has reduced it to being a man's sexual partner outside of marriage.

Well, I was really making a distinction between British and American usage. In the time period I was referring to, "mistress" wasn't a feminization of master. By the 15c, mistress was being used to describe a married man's kept woman. It could mean (mistress) in charge of the laundry or the bedroom. But, from the pov of gender, "mistress" indicated a subservient position. In England, the term indicating higher status was/is "dame," which came from the French "Ma dame," which came from the Latin "domina." I believe that servants in England continue to address the lady of the house as "madam." The one exception I know of offhand is the way K-9 addressed Sarah Jane Otoh, I don't think that either mistress or madam is common usage at all in the US, or that they ever have been. Actually, this is really interesting from a cultural perspective.

Ah, exception, in the South and other hyper-polite cultures, "ma'am" is used to replace "sir." In the military, it is sometimes used to address female officers. But, ime, it's used with all women. Now, that'd be interesting to study. I think that some women prefer "Sir" or "Chief" or "Sgt," etc.

[Steve James]

If anyone's interested in this trivia.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questi ... am-vs-maam

[Darthwing Teorist]

Interesting discussion. As a side note, I am amazed at how stackexchange diversified. They are the Wikipedia of online forums. Maybe we should start a martialarts.stackexchange.com?

PS: Wow! That actually exists in a beta form! https://martialarts.stackexchange.com

[gzregorz]

This is for native English speakers from various countries. A woman recently told me that Mrs and Miss are both no longer politically correct to use and today you would have to use "Ms.". I have never heard this word before in spoken English.

I was taught this in school. Here in California you hear Miz with the surname much more than ma'am.

In fact this how students address their female teachers here. Although it is often followed by the first name only.

[Ralteria]

Right. "Mister" is the unaccented form of "master," and "Mr." is just the abbreviation, as "Mrs." was the abbreviation for "mistress." Btw, in the U.S. at least, "Master" was used as a replacement honorific for a male child.

This was what was on the address of my birthday cards from my grandparents back in the day. They were old Bostonian, which might have a cultural distinction also.


Here in the dirty south Ms. is the call of the day usually but when speaking to directly it's always Ma'am. And Sir. In fact a lot of kids I was growing up with actually refered to their parents in those honorifics.

Is "Mum" in use at all by ye olde British Islanders? Or am I horribly overcome with a case of Hollywooditis?