It can't be me

[gzregorz]

As an ESL teacher working a lot of hours surrounded by other English teachers, both foreign and Chinese, you really have to go out of your way to try to learn Chinese since everyone around you speaks English. In Canton it is even more difficult because often times you will hear different languages in one conversation. By the time you figure out if they're speaking Mandarin or Cantonese they will switch to keep foreigners in the dark. Then you also have local dialects. I can remember a famous shopping center in my town in which the name was pronounced four different ways depending on where in China you were from.

In my experience the foreigners with the best language skills are the ones who do a year long intensive when they go abroad. But who has money for that? In general most ESL teachers only learn basic Chinese, simply because they don't really need it for work. Even if you do want to learn once you get girlfriend she does all the talking.

Somehow for me picking up the Chinese I did was a lot easier than trying to pick up Polish. Those Slavic languages are grammar nightmares, with each word being a possible landmine.

[Interloper]

I can see how that sort of professional-social milieu wouldn't be conducive to learning the local language. But having Chinese girlfriends and maybe extending into their social circles might make it more natural to pick up the language.
Mandarin is a lot easier to learn to speak, than English, IMO. No past- or future tenses, etc. It helps to have a music-trained ear, though, because of the tonal aspects, but learning the grammar and vocabulary aren't bad.
Reading and writing, on the other hand, is a lot of work when there's no alphabet, and everything is in pictogram symbols!

[gzregorz]

I agree, the grammar isn't complex but your Chinese will rarely be as good as their English unless you've been studying Chinese for years. All students in China study English from early age. Yet they are rarely taught to actually speak it so when they meet a foreigner they want to speak English.

But yes it is important to learn languages, I'm just trying to explain what it is like for English teachers there. For example I have a friend who lived in Thailand could read, write and speak Thai fluently, he lived there to train kickboxing. Then he moved to China to teach English and didn't have time to learn Chinese but obviously had the brain for it but after teaching a language all day the last thing you want to do is go to a language class.

[Interloper]

Good point, and I can appreciate it. I thought of teaching English in Japan, but I want to learn Japanese. If I'm surrounded by people who want to practice English, it would be a challenge to get in Japanese language practice until and unless I were to immerse myself in the culture. Taking classes or online practice in conversational or basic Japanese before leaving the States would be a definite necessity.

[gzregorz]

yeah, some teachers actually do pull it off but these are the exceptions to the rule. obviously staying long term and having a bunch of local friends makes it easier. I picked up basic Chinese because of my teacher but my tones are a mess as they are with most foreigners.

by the way those were thinking of going to China should not let a story like this put them off. if anything they should realize that China would be an adventure they would never forget. no it's not a vacation but there is never a dull moment.

[Michael]

by the way those were thinking of going to China should not let a story like this put them off. if anything they should realize that China would be an adventure they would never forget. no it's not a vacation but there is never a dull moment.

Right on. Living in a place with a totally different way of thinking is challenging, but extremely valuable because of how it makes you think about new things. It causes constant examination of one's habits and routines, which is taxing, but rewarding.

[Michael]

Thanks again. A bit unexpected/weird reasoning, but totally understandable...

All joking and excuses aside, it would be better, and ultimately reduce stress to be able to communicate, but like Greg said, it's not easy to devote oneself to studying an additional language when you're already under stress and quite busy working and running around taking several hours to do things that could be accomplished with a couple of short phone calls in the USA.

I have found that I am becoming more and more like the local population in several ways, including that I, just as they do, that I do my very best to avoid interactions with them as much as I possibly can. With this attitude, it's unlikely I'll learn the local language.

[Interloper]

You can always get Rosetta Stone and learn at home. No need to talk with unsavory folk except to "share" some of your best vocabulary with them.

Really, I understand what you're saying. It's not an ideal situation for learning the native language(s). It's different when a person is living in an arts or academic community and interacting on a more sophisticated level than the frustrating survival-mode kind.

[Steve James]

Rosetta Stone

Imo, RS is great for building vocabulary, but not so good for conversation. Pimsleur and other methods that rely on training the ear often produce students who are more comprehensible to native speakers. But, I think that people learn languages based primarily on necessity. I agree that if one is in a foreign country, but surrounded by expats, then there's no need to learn the language. Having a gf/bf that speaks the language helps, but ime it works better if you meet the girl in her own language and she doesn't speak yours. If her English is better than your French, it just becomes a pita for her. Of course, that gives you an excuse to talk to others ...

First time I went to Europe, I had a stopover in Germany. It was a relatively small town, and I'm sure there may have been someone who spoke English. Well, I saw a deli, and there was a line of people. So, I got on the line. As I got closer to the counter, I saw they had sandwiches. I listened to what the people in front of me ordered, and when I got to the front, I just repeated what the guy in front of me said. The same thing happened when I got to the city. But, I learned the most at the dinner table. The mom couldn't speak English; one daughter couldn't speak it well; the father translated what I said to the mom, who repeated it in German to the daughter, who explained what her mother meant to me, ... and then my gf would argue with her sister in French. The trick, I found, wasn't learning to speak. It was learning how to listen. It wasn't necessary to know all the words. A few key phrases, however, always came in handy. Like ... spinst du oder was?

[Interloper]

My brother is a longtime "disciple" of --and works with-- John Rassias (the Rassias Method. HQ is at Dartmouth College in NH), which is an immersion method similar to Pimsleur's (I think that Rassias and Pimsleur are "friendly rivals"). Those immersion methods, which include situational drama (Rassias acts out stuff in an exaggerated, comic way to drive home meanings), seem effective for instant-gratification conversational skills. But, IMO, really learning a language requires situational-necessity immersion, as you pointed out.

I'm always trying to speak Spanish to my Puerto Rican SIL, but apparently it's a PITA for her since she always answers in English. But when my nephew was little, my SIL wanted me to speak to him only in Spanish to aid in his bi-lingual upbrining.

[Steve James]

I'm always trying to speak Spanish to my Puerto Rican SIL, but apparently it's a PITA for her since she always answers in English.

Alcohol helps ime But, yeah, you know you're doing well when a native speaker answers in his native language. You can always pretend to understand.

[Interloper]

The funny thing is, she tells me how good my Spanish is...

[Steve James]

The funny thing is, she tells me how good my Spanish is...

Pero, en ingles

[Interloper]

Si.

[meeks]

Funny... I can only think of2 guys I know living in china for a long period of time that speak horrible Chinese. Most,others picked it up reeeeally quickly as its a vary easy language to learn as far as grammar and sentence structure goes.