Religious Freedom or Discrimination ?

[Steve James]

Well, unfortunately, she's beyond all care now; but, I'm sure she'd appreciate the thought.

Btw, news just in, the Gov. has vetoed the Bill. Thankfully.

[Interloper]

If AZ were to pass legislation to allow people to refuse service to other people who "offend" the formers' religious beliefs, how easy would it then be before service could be refused for adulterers, those having sex outside of marriage, people who fail to honor their father and mother, individuals who worship idols, etc.?

After all, they can't cherry-pick which "Biblical offenses" they can be offended by; gotta have consistency. Keep the whole lot of sinners out of their shops, hotels, restaurants, and all other businesses. But then, who would be left?

[bailewen]

The Republicans politicians know this will fail. The only reason they are doing this is to throw a bone to the religious right ....

That.

I'm relieved it didn't pass but it may have still been a political "success". Political grandstanding that wasn't done for my benefit. Looks pretty bad nationally but maybe in Arizona it garnered some political points. I don't know enough about the politics in Arizona these days.

[Steve James]

Of course, from the AZ perspective, the Bill passed the legislature. They didn't raise it up to shoot it down. If it hadn't passed their senate, and only been a debate, I'd agree with the idea that it could be a political ploy.

[Michael]

About the discrimination to Steve's family in 2000 in New York, it surprises me that it happened in that region of the USA. One option for a base commander is to make an establishment off-limits if they mistreat service members. It's essentially an economic boycott, but there are probably some specific policy guidelines in each service for when a base commander can do this. I wouldn't be surprised if those rules prevented a commander from getting involved in disputes considered political.

I've never experienced anything remotely like this in the USA, but I got a small taste of it in China, so I can relate to how shitty it feels. Like somebody said about how finding out someone you're friends with is gay being the thing that makes you see the issue in a new light, it probably takes something like that to help people see the consequences of this stupid discrimination. Best way to do this is engage people to discuss why it is they think this kind of discrimination is important to them.

How does banning blacks and gays help them? Why stop there? If they have any willingness to listen, people will eventually see the pointlessness of banning blacks, gays, or people who fit into some group they don't like from their businesses. It simply doesn't make any sense.

I hope the USA is not moving backwards on this. Perhaps the various racist rantings from the Tea Party in today's climate actually inspire people to recognize this problem anew and take some positive action. I believe the anti-worker, union-bashing trends going on today are deeply rooted in a racist history. Those two themes have gone hand in hand in the USA, especially in the South.

[Steve James]

About the discrimination to Steve's family in 2000 in New York, it surprises me that it happened in that region of the USA.

Well, it was unexpected, especially for my mom. I would have been surprised too, but only because it was right next to the academy. But, upstate NYS is actually where most of the radical racist groups live. That's where there used to be flea markets every weekend in the summer where Nazi memorabilia was sold. It's also where all the state penitentiaries are, like "Sing Sing" and Attica. Btw, there are about 50 of them. The communities (villages/towns) around them depend on those institutions, and the workers often live nearby. Anyway, NYC is the liberal part of the state, and there's little overt discrimination. Nobody would ever be refused service; but, some people may not get the same service that a beautiful woman or handsome guy might .

[Michael]

I'm not terribly surprised to hear that there are racist groups in the northern USA, just that they would ban blacks so overtly, and like you say, right next to the academy. Did they also freak out when women were first allowed to attend?

[Steve James]

I don't know the town's reaction to female cadets, but I don't think they would have faced discrimination off base. I'd have to look up the history of women there. But, I know that none of the cadets even spoke to the first Blacks admitted. It was probably worse outside the academy.

[Michael]

Lemme just say again that I've had a small whiff of this kind of treatment and it is extremely demoralizing, and it happened in my 30's. For a young person to be treated this way is definitely damaging to their psyche and self-image.

I recently came across an interview that Marlon Brando gave on the Dick Cavett show from 1973. Brando was active in the Civil Rights Movement and his support for American Indians in this interview, as well as his other support for Blacks in the Civil Rights Movement, gives some idea of how much suffering is caused by negative stereotypes from Hollywood.

FWIW, I have seen a Brando interview where he says something like he's had homosexual experiences and he was not ashamed. I think Brando has some moral authority when he speaks on Civil Rights and Human Rights, and certainly he does in comparison to others of his colleagues in the acting profession. Brando took some risks on political topics, IMO. Each of the links below is 10 minutes long.

http://www.youtube.com/user/gulleyjimson/videos
Marlon Brando Interview on The Dick Cavett Show, June 12, 1973. With representatives of the Cheyenne, Paiute and Lummi tribes.
Uploaded on Aug 2, 2008
(Pt 1 of 6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAPDQ5MlLxE

Marlon Brando Interview 1973 (2/6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNd9FhfBFcY

Marlon Brando Interview 1973 (3/6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MErL2jRJII

Marlon Brando Interview 1973 (4/6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_nXWeMFEt4

Marlon Brando Interview 1973 (5/6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQH-xi0lXPc

Marlon Brando Interview 1973 (6/6)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSygRzYGLS8

[grzegorz]

I hear the same law passed in Alabama.

[grzegorz]

I hear the same law passed in Alabama.

[Steve James]

For a young person to be treated this way is definitely damaging to their psyche and self-image.

Ah Mike, here you have hit on a key point. The problem with the statement is that it should read "can be definitely damaging" rather than "is." Almost everyone will experience something that can be psychologically damaging. The question will be how they respond. The most important thing is that they realize that they have a choice of responses. Of course, that will never guarantee any result because it will not change the psychologies or expectations of others. However, you're dead if you accept the limitations of their expectations.

[yeniseri]

I will take the Devils' Advocate position by saying that there is a lot of pretense in a lot of those who pretend they are for freedom but only want it for themselves at the expense of other. I realize I have said this millions of times but if these people are true defenders of freedom: I would dare them to do the following:

1. Boldly proclaim that they do not serve Gays, Blacks,etc (choose who you want to hate) and put in as part of their marquee, advertisements for their business, etc
Makes sense! They tell you they only accept Visa, Discover but do not accept MasterCard, Chase. OK Apply that same principle to the objects of hate.
Print flyers with the business you have then add "We do not serve THOSE PEOPLE" Be proud and laud your freedom so people will know who you are dealing with!

I'm not mad at them! I actually enjoy it. I am not fan of Chick Fil A but I like eating their bread that they claim does not have an asphalt addition that is used in paints and other stuff.