It's Obvious: but curious

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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Mon May 19, 2008 1:24 pm

I think people underestimate the sheer number of racist and sexist pigs in this country. Way I see it, a larger portion of people than most are willing to admit probably don't like the idea of a black pres or a woman pres. Everything is so damn PC now that this isn't even being talked about and everyone that might feel that way knows damn well to keep their mouth shut so as not to stir up a storm. Voting is private though and no one can verify if you voted for who you said you did. I know if my dad's dad was alive right now he would be cussing up a storm. Zealot of a democrat he was but he was racist and sexist as well. He would vote democrat no matter what but I think this time he might have changed his mind if he were alive, or just not voted.

Sad thing is this seems to be a race of extremes. Most people are moderates and have more conservative views on some things and more liberal views on others. Unfortunetaly it seems people aren't supposed to be pro gun, pro choice, anti big business, pro state right, anti big govt, minimal govt intereference in economy, and pro nature.
I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a

bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby Royal Dragon on Mon May 19, 2008 2:49 pm

I don't think it's too American watching hard working people lose their homes to pay hospital bills, or like in my fathers case, who had major stomach surgery, and was promptly thrown out the very same day because he's on Medicare! Which then led to more complications, infection, and further surgery - The doctor is now being sued and he should be, he almost killed my dad!

Reply]
A National health care system will just be Medicare on a grander scale...do you really want EVERYONE condemned to that sort of health care? Right now only a percentage of the population has to suffer through that...you want EVERYONE to as well?

Folks better stay healthy these days because whether you have health insurance or not, the "insurance" only covers you for up to so much and for only so long. Hospitals trying to make more and more profit, will have less nurses, less doctors, and will almost always choose the cheaper action when the time comes. This is no way to take care of people's health and well-being. Every single country in the entire world, has socialized medicine, but of course, since we are the greediest we haven't come around yet, but i'm hopeful we will soon. I'm also scared shitless that I don't come down with some major illness or disease, because I can't count on getting what I morally and humanely deserve to get. It's a crap shoot today!

Reply]
The rest of the world has socialized medicine, and it's only marginally better than your Medicare experiences. WE have the best health care in the world. You seriously can't want to ruin that by letting the government take it over and turn it into a Giant medicare system do you?

Why would you want to take the best health care system ever, away from like 85% of the people because the 15% on medicare have it really bad? How does making the entire thing, so 100% of the people have to deal with a horrible greedy government run medicare grown out of controll program, seem like a good thing to you?

Also, as greedy and evil, uncaring, insensitive and down right cold government that exists ONLY to serve it's own interests can be, you think they will just open up thier pet funds to pay for your torn miniscus? You have to be on crack if you think they would do that. And if they do they are going to raise everyone's taxes to pay for it. That means IF you want something better than a giant nation wide medicare system, you not only have to pay exorbitant taxes for the national butcher shops, but you will STILL have to carry your own insurance anyway. Anyone who cares about thier health will be paying twice.

Really, look at the job that did with medicare. What makes you think they would do any better running everything?

Don't buy the propaganda and bullshit. It's all a lie. All one needs to do is look at Medicare to see what it will really be like.
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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby steelincotton on Tue May 20, 2008 7:24 am

Don't buy the propaganda and bullshit. It's all a lie. All one needs to do is look at Medicare to see what it will really be like.


We will ALL be on medicare sooner or later (unless you are a super ultra-rich elite), so good luck with that philosophy.

Yes, propaganda, lies, and bullshit works both ways. I don't buy into the right wingnut ideology at all.

Every other country seems to be doing just fine with socialized medicine for the most part, and sure, they have problems and could be addressed, and WILL be addressed going forward, but I don't see, and haven't heard any real arguments against UHC yet. I remain positively affirmed that this will only make our country better on the whole, and will resolve a whole host of related issues as well.
Last edited by steelincotton on Tue May 20, 2008 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue May 20, 2008 10:19 am

steelincotton wrote:
Don't buy the propaganda and bullshit. It's all a lie. All one needs to do is look at Medicare to see what it will really be like.


We will ALL be on medicare sooner or later (unless you are a super ultra-rich elite), so good luck with that philosophy.

Yes, propaganda, lies, and bullshit works both ways. I don't buy into the right wingnut ideology at all.

Every other country seems to be doing just fine with socialized medicine for the most part, and sure, they have problems and could be addressed, and WILL be addressed going forward, but I don't see, and haven't heard any real arguments against UHC yet. I remain positively affirmed that this will only make our country better on the whole, and will resolve a whole host of related issues as well.


So the drug and insurance companies that are already ripping everyone off can be institutionalized by the government?

I think the best way to make health care affordable is to make it illegal to be a for profit business and be in the health care industry and to impose maximum salary amounts for officers that are reasonable. When the corporation that makes your medicine is rewarded by making higher profits, then they will no longer have the customer's best interests in mind, they will do what they can to make the most profits. Systems organize themselves in a way to maximize the rewards a given system will allow. In sports this means adapting technique to the comps rules, in management this means rewarding employess based on performance. A good example is lets say you have a construction company whose estimating department is separate from operations (most are) then you reward the estimators solely on the dollar amount of work they pick up. The operations depatment is rewarded by how low they can get their labor and materials solely. The estimators will be inclined to take jobs at very low margins to get their bonuses resulting in higher risk and lower profits for the company, the operations department will be inclined to scimp on materials and/or use cheap knock off materials and to half ass the installation to get their bonuses, which hurts the company as well in the long run due to liability and loss of reputation for quality workmanship. The health care system in the US is designed around the goal of making money when the health care system needs to be designed around the goal of minimizing pain, suffering, and death of the general populace. Change the way the system rewards the companies to match the desired goal of the system and all the parts will naturally align themselves to the desired goal, and not an unintended one.
I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a

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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby steelincotton on Tue May 20, 2008 10:36 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:So the drug and insurance companies that are already ripping everyone off can be institutionalized by the government?


Actually, my understanding is we would take out the middle man completely. ie. insurance companies.

It's amazing what we can accomplish in this country if we really want to. Can we imagine just for a moment what we can do with the TEN BILLION A MONTH WE ARE SPENDING IN IRAQ, if we reinvested it in our people and our country instead of other countries? For some reason though, Americans usually vote against their own interests and this has been proven many times in the past. Hopefully, we will all edumacate ourselves more regarding government and politics (including me of course), so that WE THE PEOPLE can start legislating with that in mind, as oppossed to WE THE CORPORATIONS!
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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue May 20, 2008 11:32 am

steelincotton wrote:
DeusTrismegistus wrote:So the drug and insurance companies that are already ripping everyone off can be institutionalized by the government?


Actually, my understanding is we would take out the middle man completely. ie. insurance companies.

It's amazing what we can accomplish in this country if we really want to. Can we imagine just for a moment what we can do with the TEN BILLION A MONTH WE ARE SPENDING IN IRAQ, if we reinvested it in our people and our country instead of other countries? For some reason though, Americans usually vote against their own interests and this has been proven many times in the past. Hopefully, we will all edumacate ourselves more regarding government and politics (including me of course), so that WE THE PEOPLE can start legislating with that in mind, as oppossed to WE THE CORPORATIONS!



I completely agree with that sentiment. I just think the insurance companies are too large and have too much pull in govt that they wouldn't make sure they still got a piece of the health care pie in a govt system.
I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a

bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill
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Re: It's Obvious: but curious

Postby Kaitain on Wed May 21, 2008 12:11 am

Royal Dragon - the USA doesnt have even close the best healthcare in the world. Far, far from it. Stop kidding yourself. Adequate socialised healthcare for all doesn't preclude private healthcare, many people here in the UK (we're only 18th) choose to go private rather than wait for the NHS to get around to it. But _everyone_ has a right to treatment and proper care.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
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