The Islamic State

[Michael]

I think that fear for basic survival is simply part of life, or perhaps call it the human condition to suggest the psychological understanding of it. Certainly fear can be used to intimidate or influence them at many levels, whether street bullies or bogus, color-coded terrorist warnings for social control, but these people don't invent the fear, they just use it.

[edededed]

90% is a totally accurate figure regarding my fictional religion of the Holy Religion of the Sheep, because I made it up. In my example, there were 9 stupid Sheepists for even 1 intelligent Sheepist. I don't think that there is anything to argue about here - I was just saying that IF you have a religion, and most of its members want to follow something stupid, they will follow something stupid, irregardless of that religion really being about something else.
Similarly, the "killing all who claim the superiority of other ruminants" thing is just an example for my fictional religion that represents extreme (but easily digestable) views.
This view may not even come from the canonical Holy Tome of the Sheep - it may just be an "interpretation."

I also do agree that humanity is slowly moving in a positive direction, but I would argue that humanity is drawn to religion more by:
1. Indoctrination or Introduction (by parents, society, etc.)
2. Fear or other Difficulties (of the unknown, of the future, etc.)
3. Loneliness (i.e. the social benefits)
At least, most people I can think of who is in a religion joined for one of the reasons above. #1 was the reason for me and almost my entire extended family in the US and Korea. #2 was the reason for a few people I know (who often join during a "dark" period of their life). #3 is the reason for many members of "ethnic churches" (Korean, Chinese, African-American, etc.)

By joining a religion, many do indeed find hope and love, but I think that is about the end product, not the original motive...
But anyway, religions can be both positive or negative, I'm not disputing that - many religious groups work very hard to help the needy, etc. - certainly more than people would do if they were not reminded to do so by a religion. So there are good effects as well. Certainly, religion at least spurs people to think about ethics to some degree - the mass media mostly just spurs people to think about money and food and sex.

[Michael]

Certainly, religion at least spurs people to think about ethics to some degree - the mass media mostly just spurs people to think about money and food and sex.

I think I've seen first hand that an atheistic, consumerist society is worse than a religious one.

[grzegorz]

I think I've seen first hand that an atheistic, consumerist society is worse than a religious one.

England is not that bad, is it?

[Michael]

LOL!

[allen2saint]

90% is a totally accurate figure regarding my fictional religion of the Holy Religion of the Sheep, because I made it up. In my example, there were 9 stupid Sheepists for even 1 intelligent Sheepist. I don't think that there is anything to argue about here - I was just saying that IF you have a religion, and most of its members want to follow something stupid, they will follow something stupid, irregardless of that religion really being about something else.
Similarly, the "killing all who claim the superiority of other ruminants" thing is just an example for my fictional religion that represents extreme (but easily digestable) views.
This view may not even come from the canonical Holy Tome of the Sheep - it may just be an "interpretation."

I also do agree that humanity is slowly moving in a positive direction, but I would argue that humanity is drawn to religion more by:
1. Indoctrination or Introduction (by parents, society, etc.)
2. Fear or other Difficulties (of the unknown, of the future, etc.)
3. Loneliness (i.e. the social benefits)
At least, most people I can think of who is in a religion joined for one of the reasons above. #1 was the reason for me and almost my entire extended family in the US and Korea. #2 was the reason for a few people I know (who often join during a "dark" period of their life). #3 is the reason for many members of "ethnic churches" (Korean, Chinese, African-American, etc.)

By joining a religion, many do indeed find hope and love, but I think that is about the end product, not the original motive...
But anyway, religions can be both positive or negative, I'm not disputing that - many religious groups work very hard to help the needy, etc. - certainly more than people would do if they were not reminded to do so by a religion. So there are good effects as well. Certainly, religion at least spurs people to think about ethics to some degree - the mass media mostly just spurs people to think about money and food and sex.

Just show me your data, brother. You've developed some elaborate theories here, but I don't see anything else but a generalized prejudice against religioue belief and believers.

"Well, In would argue that all religious belief stems from human weakness as you can see here in my handy dandy chart which is un universally applicable across all cultures..." Give me a break.

What I find particularly interesting is that none of the people who engage in this very generalized discussions has the slightest bit of expertise in the area. Even casually. It all stems from this transparent pervasive cultural attitude that anyone who believes in or belongs to anything that does not priviledge human intellect, agency and freedom is naive and wrong. Twenty somethings in the US are all like that because they were told to be by the same media.read Gawker.com and read the comments...its so predictable its like clockwork. "Blah, blah...the sky daddy....blah, blah....why cant people just be nice to each other?" THAT reductionist attitude is the same cultural "weakness" and "fear" you assign to others, my friend and if you are not smart enough to see that, then I feel sorry for you.

I don't have the data on your "Here's why weak people believe in religion" but there is another reason you overlooked...they fucking believe it.They find it to be true in their lives and in their view. And if you think religious belief only comforts people, then again, you are victim of your own very shallow bias, because really believing in something makes you sacrifice for it as well. My church has written in ethics and social values that would make your head spin.Psychiatrists, you know, the people who you think know it all "because...science!", have overwhelmingly found religious belief to be an asset in the recovery of people with mental illness, rather than a source of weakness as most psychiatrists believed in previous generations. They were ready to admit their biases in their research. I wonder how long it will take any of you?

[muttaqi]

Leifeng

I wasn't quite sure if you were a Salafi apologist or dyed in the wool atheist (funny but not surprising that either of those two things could manifest so similarly as to cause confusion). So I guess the Bertrand Russell quote may bring some more clarity to the situation though still not closure on the matter - as you seem to to be bending over backwards to give some validity to The salafi / wahabi approach.

Whatever the case, your understanding of Islam is infantile - masquerading as authoritative.

Firstly - Salafi/Wahabi 'thought' was universally condemned by traditional Sunni scholarship at its inception -whether we're talking Ibn Taymiyyah's original heresy or Abd al-Wahab's revision of the same crap. And that's before even going down the road of the bloodshed they're responsible for.

Next, you're dead wrong about 'fear' being the primary motivator in Islam.
Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Islam knows that Allah's mercy outweighs his wrath.
Your quoted ayat gives an inaccurate view in the limited isolated section you chose to reproduce. It is specifically comparing those who plan evil deeds to those who fear their Lord and do not engage in wicked behavior. This fear is like a child's fear of a parent as a motivating factor to keep them, for instance, from stealing things. That fear of their parent is only one side of the coin. A child who has an abusive parent may in fact do many things they shouldn't, because they don't have respect for their parent, are not in 'fear' of letting someone down that they love etc. It's a parents love that does more to guide the child to righteousness than the fear does. But love without fear is also not enough - as evidenced by the outcome of parents who may love their children but refuse to ever discipline them, in any way, for their wrong doing. Anyone ever see the episode of Louie where the kid he's watching shits in his tub? Talking to the boy, trying to get to the bottom of his destructive behavior - he responds to Louie that his mom said anything he does is ok because he loves himself.

And practically speaking, for those of us within the tradition itself, I can say categorically that people are not living their lives as Muslims with fear being a prime factor. Having just finished the Eid, I can say the overwhelming feeling and emotion of people within the community is one of joy, redemption, and of obtaining Allah's blessings, forgiveness and mercy. And during the month long fast before that Eid, it is again those things which are our focus - not abstaining from food and water out of fear.

If you asked my children what emotions come to mind when they think of God or their religion - I can guarantee you that fear would not be on their list.

Likewise, I would not presume to speak for Christians or Jews - but from my understanding, their relationship to God and the interplay between love and fear would be very similar.

Long lasting cultures- such as the broader Islamic one - that have produced deep mystical practices, arts, poetry, architecture, sciences and philosophy do not do so amidst a predominate current of fear.

Elements within any religion which seek to elevate God's Wrath and Mankind's fear, do so to gain power and control people - not to make people get closer to God. And these elements, whatever religion they are in, are ultimately responsible for turning people away from religion and to a secular mindset - which in the end, has the same vulnerability to heading down a dark path as any negative elements within any religion (Stalin or Mao ring a bell?)...

Fear is a human emotion that will never go away. It is a motivating factor that keeps people from jumping off a cliff, that prompts people to form societies and political structures in order to keep chaos at bay. But any successful society - whether secular or religious cannot maintain itself and prosper with fear as a primary motivating factor (we only have to look at North Korea as a current example of this).

That Islam acknowledges fear as a major human emotion, and utilizes it along with such important but divergent concepts such as wrath, justice, love and mercy - does not speak to its detriment, but rather to its holistic and nuanced understanding of world - and the reality that there is a balanced interplay between these things (yin and yang - which should be a somewhat understood concept on this forum).

[edededed]

Hi allen2saint:

I think you are reading my posts with a lot of negativity that is not really intended; I am not saying that science has all the answers, I am not saying that atheism is true, I am not saying that religion is wrong. Of course people in religion have beliefs. The problem is that most people are simply born into a religion by default, and their beliefs are set by default, too. There may be a correct religion, of course, but they can't all be correct, since they contradict each other - so then a follower (who has usually not made a comprehensive comparison of many different religions before settling on one) can only expect to be on the correct path by chance.

Obviously you are quite defensive, but I understand - I was very defensive once upon a time, too. That doesn't mean you are wrong - we don't know. I am not really sure what you mean that "none of us have the slightest bit of expertise in the area" - are you talking about expertise in religions? What would one need to have that? I am quite sure that very few of us will have had extensive experience in more than one religion, for one. In my opinion, if you've only ever tasted peaches, how can you be sure that they are the most delicious fruit in the world? Even if you have read about all the other fruits. Still, you can't go and eat every fruit in the world if you have a life, so you do what you can, with what you know.

[allen2saint]

Obviously you are quite defensive, but I understand - I was very defensive once upon a time, too...

No, I'm not being defensive, I am defending my position which is in opposition to a majority of people posting on this topic. I grown particularly impatient at the basless speculation that seems to always skew negative about how many sheep, leaders, etc, who needs to belong, who is lonely, etc. I've made my points clear above. It is shallow reasoning and it has no basis in any kind of proofs.

Most people have had exposure to religion, but I am not seeing anyone else here who has any formal education in it, or related subjects of the sociology of religion,etc. Everyone here, except our few Muslim colleagues, is proceeding from a bias against religious belief and against believers as anything other than what has been abundantly posted before. Even that I take no issue with as long as people are upfront about it and do not mistake their biases for facts.

My religious belief is one thing, but I get my facts about people from hard data. From polling, from history and from other scholars smarter than me who have culled that data together to determine who's up to what in the US Catholic Church and beyond. I have heard more nuanced, hard hitting criticism of belief and my church by my own professors than I have from any of these armchair critics who just disdain religion in general. One would think that such an idea, that experts in a field know what is good and bad about it, would not be lost on a group of martial artists,who contend with biases and misinformation all the time, but perhaps I am wrong.

[leifeng]

Leifeng

I wasn't quite sure if you were a Salafi apologist or dyed in the wool atheist (funny but not surprising that either of those two things could manifest so similarly as to cause confusion). So I guess the Bertrand Russell quote may bring some more clarity to the situation though still not closure on the matter - as you seem to to be bending over backwards to give some validity to The salafi / wahabi approach.

Whatever the case, your understanding of Islam is infantile - masquerading as authoritative.

Firstly - Salafi/Wahabi 'thought' was universally condemned by traditional Sunni scholarship at its inception -whether we're talking Ibn Taymiyyah's original heresy or Abd al-Wahab's revision of the same crap. And that's before even going down the road of the bloodshed they're responsible for.

Next, you're dead wrong about 'fear' being the primary motivator in Islam.
Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of Islam knows that Allah's mercy outweighs his wrath.
Your quoted ayat gives an inaccurate view in the limited isolated section you chose to reproduce. It is specifically comparing those who plan evil deeds to those who fear their Lord and do not engage in wicked behavior. This fear is like a child's fear of a parent as a motivating factor to keep them, for instance, from stealing things. That fear of their parent is only one side of the coin. A child who has an abusive parent may in fact do many things they shouldn't, because they don't have respect for their parent, are not in 'fear' of letting someone down that they love etc. It's a parents love that does more to guide the child to righteousness than the fear does. But love without fear is also not enough - as evidenced by the outcome of parents who may love their children but refuse to ever discipline them, in any way, for their wrong doing. Anyone ever see the episode of Louie where the kid he's watching shits in his tub? Talking to the boy, trying to get to the bottom of his destructive behavior - he responds to Louie that his mom said anything he does is ok because he loves himself.

And practically speaking, for those of us within the tradition itself, I can say categorically that people are not living their lives as Muslims with fear being a prime factor. Having just finished the Eid, I can say the overwhelming feeling and emotion of people within the community is one of joy, redemption, and of obtaining Allah's blessings, forgiveness and mercy. And during the month long fast before that Eid, it is again those things which are our focus - not abstaining from food and water out of fear.

If you asked my children what emotions come to mind when they think of God or their religion - I can guarantee you that fear would not be on their list.

Likewise, I would not presume to speak for Christians or Jews - but from my understanding, their relationship to God and the interplay between love and fear would be very similar.

Long lasting cultures- such as the broader Islamic one - that have produced deep mystical practices, arts, poetry, architecture, sciences and philosophy do not do so amidst a predominate current of fear.

Elements within any religion which seek to elevate God's Wrath and Mankind's fear, do so to gain power and control people - not to make people get closer to God. And these elements, whatever religion they are in, are ultimately responsible for turning people away from religion and to a secular mindset - which in the end, has the same vulnerability to heading down a dark path as any negative elements within any religion (Stalin or Mao ring a bell?)...

Fear is a human emotion that will never go away. It is a motivating factor that keeps people from jumping off a cliff, that prompts people to form societies and political structures in order to keep chaos at bay. But any successful society - whether secular or religious cannot maintain itself and prosper with fear as a primary motivating factor (we only have to look at North Korea as a current example of this).

That Islam acknowledges fear as a major human emotion, and utilizes it along with such important but divergent concepts such as wrath, justice, love and mercy - does not speak to its detriment, but rather to its holistic and nuanced understanding of world - and the reality that there is a balanced interplay between these things (yin and yang - which should be a somewhat understood concept on this forum).

Whatever works for you man. As long as you don't kill the poor guy on page 5 we are fine.

[Michael]

Got this off a facebook post so I uploaded it to my youtube channel to share here. I think the message written in the English subtitles is a good one in general, not just because it has a criticism about Arab society. If any Arab speakers can check the general accuracy of the subtitles, I would appreciate it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYDqsIi8zAs

[grzegorz]

Back to Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/world/ira ... homepage-t

[chud]

Hillary blames rise of Islamic militants on Obama policies: click

[shawnsegler]

I have heard more nuanced, hard hitting criticism of belief and my church by my own professors than I have from any of these armchair critics who just disdain religion in general. One would think that such an idea, that experts in a field know what is good and bad about it, would not be lost on a group of martial artists,who contend with biases and misinformation all the time, but perhaps I am wrong.

He says trying to make everyone quiver at all he knows and yet...can not defend. Sad really.

Keep working on that degree, sport. Someone'll respect you for it someday. Maybe your parents?

S

[chud]

Deleted.