children washing up on the Rio Grande

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children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:39 pm

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:08 pm

FOX News has no credibility when reporting what they claim is news! Bush did a positive thing when he granted that exemption for people to contest deportation but FOX pretend it is present POTUS who wants these kids to have a free ride in USA when it was actually a deal between the last POTUS and the US Congress to provide refuge for those who 'deserved" it, whatever that implies!
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Michael on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:16 pm

Learning Spanish to communicate with union brothers is better than learning Mandarin to take orders.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Steve James on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:56 pm

Well, the blame game is just to give the people who are willing to buy it a reason to vote. It's just motivation. There may be some politicians who would put an issue in historical context, but they know that it would cost them votes. Hey, being in the Congress is a great job, especially for those who don't believe in government.

Afa the actual problem: i.e., why hundreds of children are on our borders, sending them back also costs money and nothing will stop them from attempting to return. That might just be due to conditions where they live as much, if not more, than conditions here. I.e., whether this country is "pulling" them or whether their are forces "pushing" them here. I think that, if it's the latter, then it'd be better to think of them as refugees. Kids aren't coming for jobs.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby wiesiek on Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:50 am

not to many years ago we blow up the Berlin Wall, build in the `60...

shitty flash back I have

anyway we are livin` in interesting times
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:28 am

yeniseri wrote:FOX News has no credibility when reporting what they claim is news! Bush did a positive thing when he granted that exemption for people to contest deportation but FOX pretend it is present POTUS who wants these kids to have a free ride in USA when it was actually a deal between the last POTUS and the US Congress to provide refuge for those who 'deserved" it, whatever that implies!


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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby chud on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:53 am

The person responsible for the man-caused disaster is: click
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby grzegorz on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:32 am

The fact is the US trained death squads are the people who formed MS.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... risis.html

THE DAILY BEAST

John Moore/Getty

POLITICS07. 11. 14THE DEPORTED L.A. GANGS BEHIND THIS BORDER KID CRISIS

by Michael Daly

Poverty was surely a factor, as no doubt was the mistaken belief that American immigration authorities would not send back unaccompanied children.

But only true terror could have driven kids by the thousands to make the harrowing journey from Honduras to the United States.

“It has to be extreme fear,” says Al Valdez, formerly the supervising investigator of the gang unit at the Orange County District Attorney’s Office and presently a professor at the University of California at Irvine.

The terrible irony is that the immediate sources of that terror are fellow Hondurans who once made that same journey only to be deported for having become swept up in two monstrous gangs that rose from the streets of Los Angeles.

Jorge Cabrera/Reuters

A member if the MS-18 gang stands next to graffiti of a cobra in the shape of the number 18 at the prison in San Pedro Sula, Honduras.

The 18th Street Gang was named after the locus of its birth in the Ramparts section. It is also known as MS-18 and has been nicknamed The Children’s Army because of its predilection for recruiting even kids still in elementary school.

The Mara Salvatrucha gang was formed by refugees from the civil strife in El Salvador during the 1980s and grew to include thousands of members from all of Central America. It is also known as MS-13.

Initially, only those gang members who were convicted of serious crimes and served their sentences were deported. A new law in 1996 then mandated the deportation of anybody busted for a crime that carried a year in prison or more, even if the sentence was suspended. A member of MS-18 or MS-13 needed only to be caught in a petty drug bust or a minor theft to be deported via the unmarked planes of the real-life Con Air, officially known as the Justice Prisoner Alien Transport System run by the U.S. Marshals.

Between 2001 and 2010, Con Air flew 129,760 convicted criminals back to Central America. These included 44,042 who arrived in Honduras on daily flights that were initially to one of two cities. The flights to the capital, Tegucigalpa, were then suspended and they all began landing at the country’s second-largest metropolis, San Pedro Sula.

That was increasingly convenient for the members of MS-18 and MS-13, for the gangs had brought L.A. thuggery to SPS, where the police had proved to be as ineffective as they were corrupt. The gangs had essentially taken over big parts of the city, warring with each other and preying on innocents with virtual impunity.

“In recent years, federal law-enforcement authorities have targeted MS-13 and MS-18 alien gang members for deportation, an action that some argue has contributed to the development and proliferation of U.S.-styled gangs in Central America,” a 2008 U.S. congressional report notes.

Valdez, the former Orange County gang unit chief, says that when visiting Central America he came upon records indicating that some form of street gangs had existed there as far back as the 1950s. 

“What was new was this ’90s generation of street gangs,” he says. 

He also contends that the true number of deported MS-18 and MS-13 members is fewer than the statistics might suggest. He adds that most of them were minor players in the U.S.

But, Valdez suggests, ubiquitous American popular culture gave enormous street cred to even a low-level L.A.-style gangbanger. An L.A. shoplifter could play an SPS Scarface.

The youngsters arrived at our border with the unspoken message that we reap what we sow.

“A big fish in a little pond,” Valdez says.

There were also a few who had been big even in a pond the size of Los Angeles. They marshaled their underlings in San Pedro Sula and set to recruiting a whole new crop of chairmen for their army.

“The gangs exploded, the membership exploded, and everything exploded,” Valdez says.

The result was that the murder rate in San Pedro Sula rose to 187 per 100,000, or more than double that of Honduras itself, and 10 times that of Chicago. San Pedro Sula had become known as the most dangerous city on Earth.

Neither gang hesitated to torture and kill youngsters, telling one boy, “You’re either with us or against us.” Anybody perceived as being against them was liable to be found shot and maybe tortured.

When the rumor swept Central America that unaccompanied children were being allowed to remain in the United States, few youngsters left Nicaragua. Poverty there is as crushing as elsewhere in Central America, but the gang presence is relatively minimal.

More than 2,200 kids left San Pedro Sula, heading in desperation for the very country that gave rise to the gangs they were fleeing. 

“People don’t want to die,” Valdez observes.

The youngsters arrived at our border with the unspoken message that we reap what we sow.

Now some of us are clamoring for an added cruel irony. They want to send the border youngsters back on what would become Con Air for Kids.

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Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby shawnsegler on Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:57 pm

I'm so sick of the right's hate boner for Obama being thrust in my face.

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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Steve James on Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:31 pm

If Swift were alive, his modest proposal might be taken seriously. In fact, today, it might already be happening.

Anyway, it's always easier to fix the blame rather than fix the problem.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Michael on Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:27 pm

2014 is much too late to ostracize and excoriate Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Gonzalez, Yoo, etc. By now they should have been indicted and awaiting trial. Likely the above deal was choreographed just to allow for the obligatory minimization of crimes, as in the absurd investigation into Tony Blair a couple of years ago that exonerated him.

None of these people have suffered one iota for their crimes, in fact they've profited massively, such as Blair's personal worth. Until they're in criminal court facing charges, in every possible jurisdiction until the end of their lives, it's just more fodder for endless discussion about left and right.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Steve James on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:16 pm

Ever see the movie "The Day After Tomorrow"? The basic premise is that there's an "ice age" and people in formerly temperate zones have to move toward the equator. Anyway, at one point, there are these pictures of masses of Americans wading across the Rio Grande --and the Mexicans are trying their best to stop them.

Otoh, there are plenty of stories of women passing their small children over the hands of strangers to get them onto helicopters or planes leaving war zones. Well, it's true that we could take care of our own people better. But, truth be told, we won't; not every if we get rid of every one of those kids. Yeah, I get it, no sense having a bleeding heart if it ain't your blood.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Interloper on Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:37 am

The manager of the auto mechanic shop I patronize, told me about his family past when we were chatting, last week. He was born in the US to an undocumented immigrant who later took him to the Dominican Republic, and then to her home country of El Salvador, where he lived until young adulthood. He learned auto mechanics there, then returned to the US, where he now has a wife and infant son.

He told me that in El Salvador, the government and the drug warlords are so intertwined that corruption and violence are the "normal" state of affairs. The government-employed police are paid off by the drug gangs, as are most political leaders. When a drug gang wants to take over a particular area for their base, the police knock on all of the village doors and tell the families to pack their belongings and leave. If they don't within a short time, the police return and gun down every woman, man and child.

Entire villages are annihilated, without recourse, by gangs.

So, I have no trouble understanding why parents would send their children here to the US. They are in utter despair that any help will arrive for them, so they take a gamble that their children will make it here safely and take root in a country where there is still opportunity and hope. Then, perhaps, the parents themselves will one day be sent for and make a new life in the USA. But even if not, their children will have gotten the hell out of Hell.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Michael on Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:48 am

There are a lot of connections to what Interloper described with the USA.
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Re: children washing up on the Rio Grande

Postby Steve James on Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:29 pm

Adam Kwasman, a Republican state representative who favors stronger border controls, had joined a group of people in the town of Oracle protesting the expected arrival of migrant children, according to a report on The Arizona Republic website, azcentral.com.

The demonstrators complain that the federal government's response to the increase in new arrivals from Central America was putting their communities at risk.

Kwasman tweeted from the scene "Bus coming in. This is not compassion. This is the abrogation of the rule of law," according to the website.

Kwasman later said, "I was able to actually to see some of the children in the buses. And the fear on their faces ... This is not compassion," according to video broadcast on the site.

Told by a reporter that the children on the yellow school bus were actually YMCA campers, Kwasman said, "They were sad, too," and admitted he made a mistake.

He deleted his tweet, which can be found on Politwoops, a website that features U.S. politicians' deleted tweets.
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