Real Religion

[Steve James]

I think that the typical discussion of "religion" is off the mark. It might make sense to argue that "belief in gods or supernatural beings" is harmful; that it how "religion" is generally defined. In that case, then we could separate humans into believers and non-believers and ask which group is better off. Imo, that would result in a paradox. Most of mankind has had some form of belief in supernatural beings and forces. However, it would also mean that Muslims and Christians are no different than Romans, Hindus or Voudouistes.

But, that's the thing; it's the conflicts among "religions" that has caused the problems. And those problems are not "religious" in general, or even about the specifics of practice. Every ancient society had a religion. Period. And there have always been skeptics within that society, whether or not they were free to complain.

Yes, the skeptics (and those who had other beliefs) were (and have always been) fearful. But, that fear was of the people in power, not of religion. Religion didn't cause the fear, either. It's the opposite. Humans developed religion and the belief in the supernatural because of their fear of the unknown, and death in particular. It started with burying the dead and revering the ancestors (parents) long before the invention of writing.

One could easily call it the product of ignorance --i.e., lack of knowledge, not stupidity. What makes us people is that we have tried to discover answers that fill in that uncomfortable ignorance. It's why humans, even up to Christianity, have sacrificed plants, animals, minerals and even other people to their gods. It's also why people have been willing to sacrifice themselves for their religion. What's scary about religion?... what people will do for it. Otoh, belief in a higher power and more to existence than just this life have been very comforting for many, many people who have no interest in harming others and have never harmed anyone.

I don't believe there has ever really been an atheist society. There have just been societies where the leaders imposed their beliefs, usually to help them maintain control. There are always believers, even when they're repressed. Their belief comes from a human need to address the fear of and curiosity about the unknown. As long as that exists, there will be religion. Yes, I know that someone who holds a religious belief will claim that it has the answers. I don't deny their answer. I'm just saying that, for those questions, almost everybody wants answers. What they do with them is purely human, and maybe natural.

[kenneth fish]

All religion is mythology, created in an attempt to explain what is not explicable within the context of current knowledge. There is no Kharma, Heaven, or Hell or other mythic constructs. You are here. You will live, and then you will die. What you do in between is up to you. How you interpret your life gives it meaning to you, but that is because humans crave context and meaning - even it we must inject it ourselves.

[Steve James]

Well, of course, one man's religion is another's myth. And yes, they both speak about things that are not explicable with current knowledge --and must be accepted on faith. However, some might say that the basis of this ignorance is the fact that we are an inherently curious species. In fact, that's why we have science, which was created by people who had been taught myths. People still want to try to find out what existed "before" the beginning. We (as a species) do not accept the idea of "can't know" and that's why our current knowledge continues to expand.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing about the truth of any particular religion's view of death. I was simply arguing that it's natural for people to have that curiosity, and that it's not necessarily a bad thing. When people speak of the evils of "religion," they're talking about something else, usually people who believe or disbelieve something specific.

[chud]

All religion is mythology, created in an attempt to explain what is not explicable within the context of current knowledge. There is no Kharma, Heaven, or Hell or other mythic constructs.

[Dmitri]

belief comes from a human need to address the fear of and curiosity about the unknown

...which in turn comes, IMO, from (nothing more than) the relative complexity of the human brain. I've had a couple of discussions recently with a religious friend who thinks humans are "special" (as in "children of God") and are not at all like animals, but that isn't confirmed by my observations. We are to cats, as cats are to fish, as fish is to insects, ... etc. I.e. one just slightly more complex than the other, and that's all there is to it. It's a freakin' tough pill to swallow though, for many, so this view will never be a popular one -- even if it were ( ) the closest available description of Life, the Universe, and Everything.

[Doc Stier]

[klonk]

Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that is has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark.

[allen2saint]

Thought I'd weigh in...

Upfront, I have a master's in theology from a Catholic University. But I lived about 20 years in two different places with a cyclic relationship with my spiritual sense. Sometimes I felt kinda detached, sometimes angry, sometimes feeling Tibetan Buddhism was it, being generally spiritual, etc, etc. I decided to try a year as a chaplaincy student. The hospital was desperate, so I got in without any previous education and only after a year of seeing what life had to offer there, did I decide to go to get my masters. So, I am hardly the prototypical "dyed in the wool" church lady type.

Jews and Christians connect religion and ethics in a certain way because in their belief( mine) God wants people to be in relationship with him through moral actions. That is a fact of it, whether we want to play amateur anthropologist and immediately say 'Well Abraham was just this big leader and they mythologized him, blah, blah..." The ethics and God connection is very pronounced in the US, because Europeans came here as religious and political refugees initially and then more go the bright idea to come here to win souls for this or that denomination...all the while not obeying their own rules with the native people.

So, in the US more than other places, you get the idea religion is necessary for ethics and that life without religion is somehow absolutely unethical. I find both of those beliefs extreme and absurd and unproductive in the grand scheme of things

For the people who say religion is just some kind of indoctrination and social control, I would like to know, how have you actually learned about anything except through other people? Whether its books or groups or college or what? Do you exist in some universal timeless field of infinite knowledge, like Marvel's Watchers? And do you scrutinize all the things you learned in life as thoroughly as you scrutinize religious belief? I often encounter people who are against religion but put so much faith in this or that political party and I wonder if anyone with a sense of history could show me a group that does not in some way teach others, try to live up to something and fuck up. So, why is only religion criticized like this when we could level that same unrelenting scrutinity at Confucianism, Taoism, secular philosophies.

We're practical people because we study an art that has practical application, so perhaps that informs the "if I can't see it, it doesn't exist" attitude. I spend about 70% of my time writing my "inner door" papers criticizing Catholic thought on various subjects. My graduate work, which was very rigorous and was taught to me by people who insisted I think for myself, circumscribed the mysteries of my particular religious beliefs about what can be learned, discerned and explored in the human condition and what is over our heads, particularly about the many tragedies I saw and the one I experienced. It was a worthwile pursuit.

[Steve James]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't start this thread to criticize "religion" at all. I don't really care much about a debate between religion and atheism. There are simply too many forms of religion. Moreover, my point was that human beings as a whole are unaware of what happens after death, and that mystery is what religion addresses. One need not believe in any of the answers given by other humans. When groups of people share the same answers, it's called their religion, specifically when their answer is supernatural. In general, atheists criticize supernatural answers, but not questions. When questions are no longer considered valid, people become dogmatic. In any case, religion has not stopped people from continuing to ask about the same questions.

Afa ethics and religion, yes, religions always have rules. Well, to me, they're like laws: i.e., only there because people are doing them, and incapable of preventing people (even the most pious) from doing so. Call it fallen nature or whatever one likes. The preacher always reminds us that we are all sinners. Otoh, atheists have rules too, and they probably break commandments no more nor less than the average churchgoer. So, the % stuff comparing religionists to atheists is patently unverifiable.

Oh, btw, the Puritans didn't come here because they wanted religious freedom, but not because they were persecuted in Holland or England. They came because they wanted to impose their own religion, and no one on RSF would agree with their "rules." Ask Nate Hawthorne But, that wasn't a consequence "of" religion or even religion at work. It was men imposing their will; it has been that way for several thousand years. Can't speak about forever or the mother religions, though.

[Bao]

First, IMHO, it's important to separate "personal religion" from public religion and the great world religions. You can scold the follies of mind controlling organizations. But the personal need to reflect upon life and explore ethics, whatever shape it might take, should be respected.

Second, the World Religions were definitely not created only from curiosity or to explain "what is not explicable within the context of current knowledge". But to describe practical, everyday matters in a very different cultural context and to lead the people in things that was important to society and everyday life. Ethics and moral rules are always important for the stability of any society. In ancient times, they were explained in the language and culture of their own time. And sometimes the people needed to be led. For instance, how could the peasants and workers be persuaded to take a weekend or a week of to rest and recreation? In Feng Shui it's said that the toilet should be as far away from the kitchen area as possible. Is this religious superstition or just common sense?

[Steve James]

Let me say about curiosity that it's more than just wondering about where we came from or how things got to be the way they are. It starts out as a necessity. Agriculture doesn't begin purely by accident. That's why one will always find societies, and particularly civilizations, that worship some agricultural deity. They didn't know if the sun would come up, so they paid close attention. It's not hard to imagine, taking the point about everyday observation, that ancient people saw patterns. Yes, plants were cut down, but they could also grow back. Ideas about "religion" weren't simply invented; they were the product of the observation of life. This wasn't an option; it was a necessity.

[kenneth fish]

I highly recommend Joseph Campbell's "The Masks of God" to anyone interested in exploring this topic in depth.

[allen2saint]

As a counterpoint, I would suggest that anyone wanting to approach this subject in depth should take one religious view, one this is pertient and interesting to the person, and delve into all aspects of it. Before I went to school even my chaplain supervisor pushed for me to get a history of religions type degree and I am very glad I didnt do that. Being in one venue has really helped me get the history, philosophy, strengths, faults, beauty and problems of this particular religion of mine to the point where I have been far more able to see those same things in another person's religion, culture, background, etc. and how they interact.

I think the analogies for martial arts are obvious, right? You meet that person who wants to somehow master all styles, be all things in all situations, see how the styles converge, all that stuff when, if they just studied one well, they would be very equipped to see the universal concepts, problems, etc.

No disrespect to Dr's Campbell or Fish, I just feel Campbell's view is as a generalist and he does not delve into any belief system deeply. A friend of mine knew Campbell, actually. He ran the parking garage where "Joe" parked and said he was a wonderful guy. Campbell was so low key, my buddy never knew what he even did for a job until after he died and he saw his name on one of the videos.

[shawnsegler]

I would ask of you who feel religious connection to watch the first episode of this show if you want some sort of understanding of what people who DON'T believe what you believe..."believe" as it were...

[rob2]

Religion is an incurable hereditary disease