Real Religion

[shawnsegler]

Yeah, I do agree that it's analogous to how a person's martial art should be reflected in a person's actions. Anyway, afa the zealots against religion, I'm not saying that they're right. I'm suggesting that forgiving them for their trespasses would also be right, or wouldn't be wrong. I think that there many people who say they're "anti-religion" when in fact they're "anti-hypocrisy" based on their experiences with people who've claimed to practice a particular religion.

Agreed again. Nonetheless, in spite of continual forgiveness and tolerance, anti-religion zealots repeatedly project their personal misconceptions and disrespectful ridicule upon those with a religious faith, especially Christians, since there are no large, violent militant factions to fear reprisals from. It's a pretty safe gig.

As someone said earlier, Doc..."Do you have ANYTHING to add to this discussion?".

What zealots? What misconceptions? What forgiveness? All you guys have done is whine about how trod upon you are and make couched remarks about Assholes. I truly think you've spent too much of your life emulating inscrutable Chinese Kung Fu masters, Doc. All you've done on this thread is come in and thrown out a little mysterious Master Po-ian distraction without really saying anything to the advancement of the discussion.

As to it being a pretty safe gig..it is..now. We have no business, though, forgetting how things were in the past when you guys held the whip. The intolerance the hate the EVIL and the KILLING and the TORTURE institutionalized by the followers of gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I'm sure you're sad that those days are gone but if there ever are any large, violent millitant Christian factions the people would be be 100 percent justified in fighting to disassemble and destroy such a thing. Never again.

As opposed to what Steve said I am anti-religion not because of the hypocrisy of the religious (although that is evil and worth being against) but because I think that religion and specifically the 3 big mono-theistic religions are actively evil and harmful to the human race.

When your religion puts faith in a supernatural element and specifically in an imaginary all seeing, all knowing, all powerful invisible force, over rational thought and have holy books touted as the "inherent, infallible" words of that being and those books have MANDATES to commit acts of violence...MANDATES...then it is very easy for the people who've put aside their rationality in favor of being controlled by this sadomasochistic paradigm to err in spectacular fashion.

This can be as straight forward as bombing an abortion clinic or a building or a plane etc etc... or making poor decisions like the assumption that you are given dominion over the world and because you'll have life eternal you have no problem with voting for wars or against things to counteract our effect on ecosystem etc etc...

Anyway, end rant.

[Doc Stier]

Well, once again, Shawn, you prove my points by your own negative comments and behavior here. No big surprise that, given that repeated past behavior is generally a good indicator of probable future behavior. I forgive your disrespect and your insults. I realize that you're incapable of anything different at this point in time.

In any case, emulating my excellent, inscrutable Chinese masters is far better than emulating you or others like you. Have a lovely evening!

[shawnsegler]

Whatever, man. I have a difference of opinion with you but since you have so much invested in the subject you can't see it as anything but negative and so turn me into an insensitive asshole when it's just not so. Maybe a little insensitive, but I think the subject is important enough and that investing so much into something with so little proof makes you overly sensitive so the onus of responsibility is on the believer to HTFU.

I'd love it if you'd emulate me in the maturity of those who have eyes to see if I might rob you of a little of your verbiage.

However I hope it gives you some sort of peace because it's a great wound for humanity and we'll very likely die of it (which is, I know, the very wish of those who seek "a better world" in the afterlife.) if people don't grow up and start seeing what's really important in the world. Us and the world.

Have a nice day.

S

[Doc Stier]

Thank you all. May God bless you and your families with abundant Light and Love. Have a good night!

[shawnsegler]

You too man.

Peace.

S

[emptycloud]

one last instalment of my time with the Berlin Jesus as it maybe appropriate, maybe not, as the Berlin Jesus often said to me..."who cares"..

....my companion and fellow flaneur was beginning to pixilate at the the edges, my whole visual field was pock marked with bullet holes of celestial light...

Out of the silence he spoke...

" your sitting in a movie theatre, deeply immersed in the flick, you have left your body, your so identified with the protagonist, you cry when he cries, you feel anger when he does, and so on, you know what I mean. Suddenly without warning the film begins to shudder, it goes out of focus. If you knew nothing about cinematography then you would run up to the screen and try to push the film back into shape. People would think your nuts....

....but because you know that the problem is in the projection booth, you calmly get out your seat, attend to the projector and get back into the movie. Your world is no different. Trying to change this world is like the crazy people running up to the aforementioned screen. You have to get back to the Mind that is doing the projecting and fix the projector "

" so is this why the world is so crazy, we are all watching different movies and each claiming that our movie is the best possible movie, the one true movie..?" I asked ...

He replied ...." that the truth appears different for everyone means chaos reigns..but the truth is true regardless of your attempts too add or detract from it..
you establish what is true for you by attacking that which you perceive to be untrue for you..your difference in values defines your enemies for you..

....few of you ever realise the illusionary nature of this world in its entirety, and thus the chaos of my movie v's your movie rolls on...every year the production and budget increases...."

" what are we to do " I asked..

" get up and walk out of the movie theatre "

lots of lurve

Rich

[Doc Stier]

Really, Rich? Your final installment of Buddy Christ? Hard to believe! In any event, thanks for your 'enlightening' comic relief to an otherwise overly serious thread.

U da man!

[wiesiek]

Lol You funny Doc. If only the Church was backed by the State and could kidnap, torture and burn people at the stake again... Keep em in line right?

Or I guess America and Europe should be more like the modern day Middle East where you can't criticize either Judaism or Islam and what people do in the name of those religions? We know what they do with their religious dissidents there...

Violent fundamentalist militants do indeed keep those people and their societies nicely brainwashed, terrorized and backwards.

as the voice from UltraPothead Catcholic driven country:

No, it is not funny when you have to deal with fundamentalist everyday
25-30 % of the adults is driven by them,
nuf to be on the top, due to lousy political Partys system here

and
Re - Doc "easy gig"

It is easy gig in US or in the net,
Try to go here ...
even 1000 miles high kung-u-fu means nothing here, if you are against

[allen2saint]

Shawn,

I'm not really the "go back and autopsy the thread" kinda guy. If your original offering of this documentary, which decides to start off the conversation about religion with 9/11 was meant in earnest to continue a fair discussion, rather than a shot across the bow of religious people, then I do apologize. It seemed to me, and to others here who aren't even religious, to be a skewed way of approaching the topic, but if it was your way of weighing in respectfully and I felt it to be more of a jab, then that part of the misunderstanding is mine and I apologize for that. I also inferred a kind of pat, cliche aggression toward religion,which may have been wrong...although your following posts certainly have not shown anything less than a zero tolerance for religion.I entered into this topic solely to say that religious people can be thoughtful as well and I offered some of that thought. Maybe someone else here cares to debate God's existence,but that is not my department. Never has been.

You've vowed to attack my every post regarding religion. You've insulted me, my belief and my profession solely because I believe differently than you do.If If I behaved in a similar way toward you as an atheist,calling your belief a "scourge," what would I be called?

A fundamentalist?
A zealot?
Intolerant?

Putting the metaphysics aside and just focusing on how this discussion is going, I think the more valid question is, if your belief results in actions that are identical to the actions of intolerant religious people, how can you claim it to be superior to that of intolerant religious people?

Allen, once again you're attributing all kinds of shit on me that come from your own mind and have little or nothing to do with what I've done or said.

To start- Your "not the sort to go back and check things" attitude is similar to the initial attitude that got my dander up in the beginning. Saying you'll ignore something or do something out of hand simply because you don't agree with it the epitome of close mindedness. I did indeed come into this in a polite fashion and what I posted was not at all about 9/11 but you wouldn't know because you threw it out. It was made right around 9/11 and was put together because 9/11 (as the guy says) was the event that made him want to formulate his thoughts on the subject.

I do have very little tolerance for religion because I think it's a thing that's outlived its usefulness and is actively bad for the human race at this point and I will whenever presented with any discussion of religion that seeks to put it in a positive light, feel the need to marshal my reasons for believing the opposite. I do think the world would be a sorrier place to have NEVER had religion but it has far outlived its usefulness and it continues to be a negative influence on the human race as a whole. Not just to the religious. All of us.

I'm not debating God's existence. I don't think it needs to be debated because its pretty obviously not something that ANY of us can realistically say to have any ability to speak about with any sort of authority. If God exists he's outside of our sphere of influence and as I said earlier if there is anything like god he's likely more like the hindu Atman than a figure who actively created the universe with us in mind cares about us, what we do, what we eat, who we fuck etc etc...and anyone who claims to speak with any authority on the subject is speaking out of their ass.

I didn't vow to attack your every post regarding religion just the ones where you say things I think are bullshit and where you speak in a way as to try and make it clear that your religion is valid in ways it's not. If you were to have your thoughts on the subject at home and never share them I would wish you and the comfort those thoughts give you well. But when you seek to convince others of something I find to be ludicrous that says that we should believe in a supernatural dimension in the face of evidence to the contrary or that your church is in any way more altruistic than it is then yes, I'll state my own viewpoint to counter it. Once again, not because you're you, but because I think you're wrong. If someone else does the same thing I'll do the same with them.

I didn't attack you and call you names for any other reason than that you came at me in a rude fashion, acted like a pompous asshole, and continue to try and attribute things to me that I didn't say or do and at this point I feel justified in doing so because you've come off and continue to come off like a douche.

As to fundamentalist atheism..well what can I say but Atheism doesn't have a system of beliefs that one can fundamentally adhere to.

I do believe that there is no good evidence to suggest a supernatural dimension and if presented with proof to the contrary as a mature individual I'd change my position to coincide with the evidence. Are you presenting evidence that would give your claims to a supernatural dimension any substance?

So, I think I've proven pretty conclusively that my actions are NOTHING like those of intolerant, religious people. You simply have a problem with what I'm saying and since you can't attack what I'm saying you keep trying to change it subtly by couching what I've done and said in your own terms and you are simply wrong

S

Shawn,

Despite my efforts to at least concede a certain hot headedness, coming from being tired, dealing with my thesis and taking this thread as my "break"( if you can believe that), you offer no concession in kind and have basically laid the entire issue at my feat, complete with repeated insults to me personally and, once again, saying I should "present evidence" to something.

Since this is not an interrogation or a trial, I am not required to prove anything. I've gone to great length to communicate my faith's beliefs, which I've written down for all to see. Some here at least respected that gesture regardless of their belief. You have not stated yours, nor have you asked me anything of substance. You have only accused me of deception, citing the usual cliche list of failings of Christians, without historical or social context. It's understandable. They are the "go to" choices when you just want to drown out someone else and ignore the realities of history. Organized atheism has quite a track record, too, but I don't try to hang that on any one person, especially in what should have been a civilized exchange of beliefs.

I regret getting angry, because my ethic is not to resist insults or attacks and I acknowledge I failed in that regard. If your ethic is to insult and attack others who attack you, even after apologies are offered, then again I ask you what makes your belief and your ethic any better than the average religious zealot who uses religious belief as the litmus test for who he will treat with decency and who he will not? Because if it is simply that you think your beliefs are "better" than mine, then unless I am mistaken, that would be the exact same prejudice and irraitonality that you despise, just with a different name.

[allen2saint]

Shawn,

I don't need to retread anything here. Your language speaks for itself.

My ethics says not to attack those who attack me and I failed in that regard. I got angry at you and at a film that started the conversation in a very one sided manner, in my view. That view is shared by others here who aren't reliigous believers. Guess thats what happens when you're writing a thesis and using a thread like this as a "break."Nevertheless, I have apologized for my actions and your response, above, is a clear statement that your ethic is, rather than to accept an apology and start fresh, to repeat insults and to repeat an aggression toward me and my beliefs without any sense of respect for either. I had a few right wing classmates insult atheists in their presentations in finals. I debated them in class, much to their dismay. They also thought their beliefs put them above acting decently toward others.

My position, which was stated clearly when I entered into this discussion, was to prove that Christianity is not a thoughtless religion and that my specific faith family does not denigrate the person based on any belief.I have stated my beliefs openly as anyone who reads this thread can tell. You've never done me that courtesy, as you have solely attacked religion. You say you're not interrogating me about God's existence, yet you close your post with "Are you presenting evidence that would give your claims to a supernatural dimension any substance?"

If your ethics tell you to hate others who hate you and to continue to insult them after apologies are offered, not condeding the slightest respect, then I see nothing "better" about the quality of your thoughts, beliefs or your way of life than mine.

[wiesiek]

sorry to brake inn,
but this is allen2saint school of Christianity,
try to talk with the Bishops here

personal Jesus is here
you may dig for him, if you like ,
but
don`t need to do it,
he will find you anyway, His name may appears differently , dough

[allen2saint]

sorry to brake inn,
but this is allen2saint school of Christianity,
try to talk with the Bishops here

personal Jesus is here
you may dig for him, if you like ,
but
don`t need to do it,
he will find you anyway, His name may appears differently , dough

Lol...I have a priest colleage at school from Poland and I love him! But...that's probably why he is here, rather than there, because he wants to be more American in his theology, lol.

I know they can be severe in Poland Here too. They've read the stuff I read, they just are still holding onto the old model...I mean, the really old model!

[Doc Stier]

[Doc Stier]

[Doc Stier]