Isreal shells another school

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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Ian on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:27 pm

Interloper wrote:When Children are the Target
by Frimet Roth

…Neither the United Nations Human Rights Council nor its predecessor, the UN Commission on Human Rights, ordered an inquiry into those violations of our human rights…


Well, when the UN embarked on a fact finding mission in 2009 (the Goldstone Report), Israel refused to engage with the mission, and barred Justice Richard Goldstone and his colleagues from entering Gaza via Israel

It also indicted Israel of systematically violating international law, including “grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which constitute war crimes”, to a much greater degree than Hamas.

So unless the UN was pro-Israel during the Partition, but has since become an antisemitic Arab puppet organisation, we have to take this report at face value.

I guess… be careful what you wish for.
Last edited by Ian on Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:44 pm

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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:49 pm

Alan Dershowitz on whether Israel was justified in entering Gaza to destroy Hamas's tunnels.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Cont ... els-371557

The key question—both legally and morally—in evaluating Israel’s recent military actions is whether the Israeli government was justified in ordering ground troops into Gaza to destroy the Hamas tunnels. This question is important because most of the deaths—among Palestinian civilians, Hamas terrorists and Israeli soldiers—came about after Israeli ground troops attacked the tunnels.

These tunnels went deep underground from Gaza to Israel and were designed to allow Hamas death squads to cross into Israel and to kill and kidnap Israeli citizens. No reasonable person can dispute that these terrorist tunnels were legitimate military targets. Nor could there be any dispute about their importance as military targets, since Hamas was planning to use them to murder and kidnap hundreds if not thousands of Israeli civilians and soldiers. And Israel had no way to discover from the air the exit points from these tunnels on the Israel side of the border, since they were hidden from view and known only to Hamas. The only way to disable them was through boots on the ground.

If Israel had the right to try to destroy the tunnels, then the resulting deaths of Palestinians must be deemed proportional to the military value of Israel’s actions, since it is unlikely that the tunnels could have been destroyed without considerable loss of life, because their entrances had been deliberately placed by Hamas in densely populated areas.

The law is clear that military targets may be attacked, even if civilian casualties are anticipated, so long as the importance of the military target is proportional to the anticipated civilian casualties and that reasonable efforts are made, consistent with military needs, to minimize civilian casualties. This sensible rule of proportionality was devised in the context of ordinary military encounters, in which the enemy is not using their own civilians as human shields. If the enemy is deliberately using civilians as human shields, the rules of proportionality should allow for more anticipated civilian casualties, especially if the target is of great military significance, as these terror tunnels were.

The reason that civilian casualties, as well as military casualties among both Hamas terrorists and Israeli soldiers, could be anticipated, is because the entrance to these terror tunnels were deliberately placed by Hamas in densely populated civilian areas, including mosques, schools and private homes. These tunnels could not be destroyed from the air without causing a far greater number of civilian casualties than those resulting from a ground attack. Moreover, the only way to ensure their destruction was for ground troops to go from tunnel to tunnel and to blow them up one by one. This inevitably risked civilian casualties. Had Hamas built the entrance to the tunnels in the many open areas of the Gaza Strip, away from the most densely populated urban centers, the number of civilian casualties would have been considerably reduced.

Hamas thus made a calculated decision to put the Israeli government to a difficult choice: either allow the tunnels to remain, thus risking the lives of thousands of Israeli civilians; or send ground troops into densely populated areas to destroy the tunnels, thus risking the lives of Palestinian civilians and Israeli soldiers. Every democracy in the world would choose the latter option if faced with this tragic and cruel choice. That is why the laws of war authorized Israel to do what it had to do to destroy the tunnels.

To be sure, the law of proportionality also required Israel to take reasonable steps, consistent with its military needs, to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, even when attacking legitimate military targets. The key word here is “reasonable,” and Israel has gone well beyond what other countries have done in analogous situations. They issued warnings, by leaflet, phone and other means—warnings that Hamas countermanded in its efforts to keep civilians in harm’s way and continue to have them serve as human shields to protect their terror tunnels. Israel did not issue warnings when it needed to act quickly to save its own soldiers from ambushes and other serious risks. Israel thus tried to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, while Hamas tried to increase both Palestinian and Israeli civilian casualties.

The Israeli government is conducting several investigations as to whether any of its soldiers violated its carefully designed rules of engagement that were drafted by lawyers familiar with international law. If they did not, then there is no valid legal or moral case against Israel. If they did and are prosecuted by Israeli authorities—either military or civilian—then the rules of the International Criminal Court would preclude it from bringing charges against any Israelis.

The right of Israel to target these terrorist tunnels is thus central to any analysis of the legal consequences of civilian deaths in Gaza. Yet a recent “report” by a group of self-described legal experts that accused Israel of “war crimes” did not even mention the tunnels. This report, deceptively entitled “Joint Declaration by International Law Experts on Israel’s Gaza offensive,” also deliberately ignored the facts that Hamas combatants do not wear uniforms, repeatedly fired rockets and mortars from densely populated civilian areas, and stored weapons and ammunition in and around mosques, schools, and designated refugee centers—all in violation of the laws of war.


Legally, the report misrepresents crucial dimension of International Law, by claiming that Israel violated the principle of “distinction” by targeting civilian buildings, without mentioning that a civilian structure becomes a legitimate military target when it is used for military purposes.

More serious is the accusation that Israel committed the war crime of collective punishment by deliberately attacking the civilian population. Again, this is a blatant mischaracterization both of Israel’s actions which were preventive rather than punitive in nature, and a willful misappropriation of a term defined in the context of mass executions during World War II. Hamas knows that in the modern media environment it profits from the deaths of Palestinian civilians, so much so that it repeatedly refused ceasefire offers proposed both by Israel and international mediators. The vast majority of Palestinian deaths came after Hamas refused to accept these cease fires.

The title of the report is doubly deceptive because very few of its signatories are recognized experts in international law. Those who are—such as Richard Falk, John Dugard and Peter Weiss—have notorious reputations as anti-Zionist zealots. The very fact that they labeled Israeli defensive actions as “offensive” demonstrates their bias.

No self-respecting lawyer would ever file a brief making the kind of unsubstantiated factual and legal claims made by this report. Were a lawyer to file a brief that did not mention the most salient facts that undercut its conclusion—here the tunnels and use of human shields—that lawyer would be disciplined, perhaps even disbarred. This report is a disgrace to the legal profession and to the academic institutions—such as Boston University, Georgetown, and UCLA—whose names are highlighted for identification purposes. Its biased authors should be called to account for this unprofessional and unethical document and no credibility should be accorded it by fair minded people concerned for the truth.

Nor should people of good will pay any attention to Bishop Desmond Tutu’s most recent screed, accusing Israel of conducting a “disproportionally brutal” military attack and “indiscriminate killing” in Gaza. Tutu also deliberately fails to mention the terrorist tunnels of death, as if by ignoring them, they would stop posing a lethal threat to thousands of Israeli citizens.

Those who condemn Israel’s recent military actions have an obligation to answer the following questions: did Israel have the right to try to prevent those tunnels of death from being used to murder and kidnap its citizens? If so, how could Israel have accomplished that with substantially fewer casualties?
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Ian on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Interloper,

This is what happens when Hamas rockets hit Israeli homes:

Image

Image

Image

This is what happens when Israeli missiles hit homes in Gaza:

Image

Image

Image

---------------------------------------------

Palestinians killed since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge: 1,976
Hamas: 230
Civilians: 1,417

Israelis killed since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge: 67
IDF: 64
Civilians:3

(Figures: United Nations Office for Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, August 19)

---------------------------------------------

And the one before:
Image

And the one before:
Image

(Figures: Israeli human rights group, B’Tselem)

“Israel has a right to defend itself.”

...
 
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:11 am

Yeah, Ian, Israel should lay down its arms and turn off Iron Dome so that its people can be killed by Hamas, just so it looks "fair." How about Hamas stops breaking cease fires and stops firing rockets into Israel?

Have you not seen all the articles and videos posted of journalists (many of them non-Jews, in case you think it's all Jewish-Israeli propaganda... ::) ), reporting AND SHOWING that Hamas is setting up and firing rockets from densely populated civilian areas, and using civilians as human shields? Have you not seen all of the protocols posted, of Israel taking huge pains to warn civilians (leaflets, telephone robo calls, etc.) and Hamas telling the people to ignore the warnings and instead place themselves in harm's way? Willful blindness to facts does not lead to any kind of understanding.

Today they fired rockets at Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and almost every region of Israel. Since the most current ceasefire, 137 rockets.
https://www.facebook.com/idfonline/phot ... =1&theater

Oh, wait - Hamas is being intimidated by Qatar into backing out of peace talks. How 'bout that?
http://www.timesofisrael.com/qatar-repo ... l-mashaal/

Israel has 6 million Jews - half the world's ethnic Jewish population. It is immediately surrounded by countries with 22 million Arabs. Wake up and smell the coffee. Have you even watched this video posted earlier?

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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:49 am

Well, I don't think that the survival of Jews or Judaism is at stake. I prefer to think in terms of Israel and Palestine rather than Jews and Arabs. I don't think that the Muslim world is united, or that Arab Muslims would join Palestinians in a common war against Israel. Maybe they would, if they could; but the same goes for both sides. Neither can eradicate the other; so, it's just a matter of time before they have to settle. That might not be in our lifetimes, but it's inevitable because all things change.

Afa history, I'll say it again, it all depends on where one wants to start, and no matter what, it'll all come down to who won the last battle. "Winning" is when fighting stops.
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:49 pm

Why Hamas underestimates Israeli resolve. For one thing, Hamas is a dictatorship, while Israel is a democracy.

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-hama ... -strength/

by Dr. Daniel Polisar (provost of Shalem College, the first liberal arts college in Israel)

The rocket fire from Gaza that broke the latest ceasefire, for which Hamas is responsible, was presumably launched on the assumption Israel could be cowed into being more forthcoming in negotiations by the specter of further conflict. Though it is hard to know the ultimate impact of the renewal of warfare, there is good reason to think Hamas’s position will be weakened, as Israelis will be less likely to make concessions that could enable the Islamist organization to rebuild its terror infrastructure and the leadership of the U.S. and Egypt less inclined to push them to do so in light of further proof of Hamas’s predilection for violence. Why, then, is Hamas seemingly acting against its own interests?

One key reason is that Hamas’s leaders have grossly underestimated the resilience of the Jewish state, assuming Israeli morale would collapse under prolonged rocket fire on our cities and mounting casualties in Gaza. Hamas’s leaders did not expect Israel to react to the kidnapping of three teenage boys by arresting hundreds of terrorists throughout the West Bank, nor did they anticipate such a strong military response to the indiscriminate rocket and mortar fire they unleashed following those arrests.


Hamas made its contempt for Israelis evident in a music video produced early in the war, “Strike, Carry Out Terror Attacks,” in which listeners were told they should “annihilate all the Zionists” because Israelis “cannot endure war” and “are like spider webs when they encounter knights.” (For the video and English translation by MEMRI, see here.) The song, written in Hebrew and meant as psychological warfare, secured the opposite effect as it became the anthem of Israeli soldiers, for whom it symbolized the bloodthirstiness against which they were fighting. Today’s attacks continue the pattern of assuming incorrectly that further violence and threats will break Israelis’ spirit and lead to capitulation.

Why, then, does Hamas consistently underestimate the resilience of Israelis? First, Gaza is a dictatorship and Israel a democracy, and dictators historically have viewed democracies as weak, seeing their liberties as leading to licentiousness and their economic freedom and prosperity as making their citizens too complacent to risk war. What they miss is that citizens of a democracy, when their way of life is threatened, often marshal great courage and the vast resources their freedoms have helped create in order to defend it. Napoleon dismissively called the British “a nation of shopkeepers,” only to be defeated by them in the Battle of Waterloo. Hitler thought the U.S. a trifling adversary, asking rhetorically in 1940, “What is America but beauty queens, millionaires, stupid records, and Hollywood?” A couple of years later, too late to save Nazi Germany, he discovered the answer.

Moreover, the Islamists are blinder on this score than typical dictators. They typically view Westerners as godless, immoral, and lacking the backbone to stand up to devoted Muslims. This is doubly true when their adversary is Israel, as Islam has traditionally viewed Jews as a subject people lacking in courage — stemming from the Islamic experience of the Jews, for the first thirteen hundred years after Muhammad, as a people ruled by Muslims in Arabia and North Africa. Hamas, a fundamentalist Islamic movement, sees Israeli Jews as lacking in the character to stand up in a prolonged struggle against steadfast believers.

There are other, more particular factors that have prevented Hamas’s leaders from seeing the strengths that enable the Jewish state to weather a sustained conflict. Most tangibly, they underestimated the effectiveness of the Iron Dome system and were dumbfounded when their rockets were made impotent by what proved to be a nearly hermetic defense. The success of Iron Dome has bordered on the miraculous, and even the Israelis and Americans responsible for its development have been amazed. But Hamas’s leaders were utterly incapable of anticipating this success, because they have little experience with the technological breakthroughs that can be achieved by individuals educated for creativity, working in an environment that encourages trial and error, and driven by an all-consuming desire to protect lives.

Israeli society is also relentlessly self-critical, constantly examining its actions in the most public way. After virtually every war or prominent failure, Israel’s government establishes a commission of inquiry, with some of the best-known among them addressing the Yom Kippur War, the massacre at Sabra and Shatilla, and Baruch Goldstein’s murderous rampage in Hebron. To the Palestinians, whose collective has been among the least self-critical in the modern period — it has undergone no real soul-searching despite three-quarters of a century of disasters brought about by turning down opportunities to establish a state and opting for violent rejection – Israel’s national stock-taking must look like the product of self-doubt. Yet it is precisely this obsession with figuring out what went wrong that enables us to learn from our mistakes and grow stronger. Following the Second Lebanon War, a witty colleague said it was obvious which side had won, since “we’ve set up a national commission of inquiry and Hezbollah is handing out victory t-shirts in Beirut.” Yet the lessons from that war have helped guide Israeli governments in the subsequent conflicts in Gaza. Hamas’s leadership, though, doubtless saw the t-shirts and the bravado they symbolized as a sign of strength and misinterpreted Israelis’ fixation on problems as a symbol of weakness – which led them to underestimate how well prepared we would be to counter their strategies and take the offensive.

Finally, Hamas’s leaders have correctly identified Israelis’ love of life and their own followers’ love of death, and seen this as the Achilles’ heel of the Jewish state. At a March 2014 rally in Gaza on the theme of “Strike Tel Aviv,” Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh declared, “We are a people that yearn for death just as our enemies yearn for life.”

During the ground war in Gaza, Muhammed Deif, the leader of Hamas’s terror wing, declared defiantly on its al-Aqsa television, “Today you [Israelis] are fighting the soldiers of God who yearn to die for the sake of Allah just as you yearn for life.”

Hamas’s leaders are partly right: Unlike Islam, which at least in the Hamas version glorifies death and martyrdom, Judaism has embraced life ever since the God of the Bible said that “I have set before you this day life and death” and enjoined us, “Choose life that you might live.” Hamas’s leaders are blind, though, to the advantages this gives us. It means our engineers do their utmost to create systems that protect lives, our soldiers do everything they can to defend comrades injured in battle, and our medics and doctors do the impossible to restore to health fighters who are hurt. Love of life does not make Israelis incapable of risking their lives when necessary; rather, it instills in them the passion to defend a way of life precious to them and their families. While Israelis feel connected to every soldier and civilian who falls, their love of life enables them to understand why such sacrifices are necessary when opposing an enemy who glorifies death, and thus gives them the fortitude to fight on.

In recent weeks, we Israelis have surprised ourselves time and again with our remarkable social solidarity and resilience. Hamas’s leaders have been incapable of perceiving this strength. So long as they fail to recognize it, they will continue to make mistakes that will hurt them and the population whose interests they purport to defend. So long as Israelis maintain our spirit, we will be able to give the lie to Hamas’s illusions and emerge strengthened from the conflict.
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:58 pm

A top Hamas sheikh admits that Hamas was behind the abduction and murder of the three Israeli teens that started the war.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-hamas- ... eli-teens/
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:31 am

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-blind- ... heer-evil/

Yair Lapid
Yair Lapid is Israel's finance minister and the chairman of the Yesh Aid party.

The following is the text of a speech delivered Wednesday, August 20, 2014 at Platform 17, Holocaust Memorial Site, Berlin

"The Holocaust causes us all to ask of ourselves the same question: What would I have done?


What would I have done if I was a Jew in Berlin in 1933, when Hitler rose to power? Would I have run? Would I have sold my house, my business? Removed my children from school in the middle of the year? Or would I have said to myself: it will pass, it is just momentary madness, Hitler says all these things because he is a politician seeking election. Yes, he’s anti-Semitic, but who isn’t? We’ve been through worse than this. It’s better to wait, to keep my head down. It will pass.

What would I do if I was a German in Berlin on the 18th October 1941, when the first train left this platform, heading East and on it 1,013 Jews – children, women, the elderly — all destined for death.

I don’t ask what I would have done if I was a Nazi, but what would I have done if I was an honest German man, waiting for his train here? A German citizen the same age I am now, with three children like mine. A man who educated his children on the values of basic human decency and the right to life and respect? Would I have remained silent? Would I have protested? Would I have been one of the few Berliners to join the anti-Nazi underground, or one of the many Berliners who carried on with life and pretended that nothing was happening?

And what if I was one of the 1,013 Jews on that train? Would I have boarded the train? Would I have smuggled my 18-year-old daughter to the northern forests? Would I have told my two sons to fight until the end? Would I have dropped my suitcase and started to run? Or would I have attacked the guards in the black uniforms and died an honorable, quick death instead of dying slowly of hunger and torture?

I think I know the answer. I think you do too.

None of the 1,013 Jews departing for their deaths fought the guards. Not them and not the tens of thousands who followed them from this place. Neither did my grandfather, Bela Lampel, when a German soldier took him from his home late at night on the 18th March 1944. “Bitte,” said his mother — my great-grandmother Hermine — to the German soldier. She slowly got down on her knees and hugged the soldiers boots. “Bitte, don’t forget that you also have a mother.” The soldier didn’t say a word. He didn’t know that from the bed, hiding under the duvet, my father was looking at him. A Jewish boy of 13 who over night became a man.

Why didn’t they fight? That is the question that haunts me. That is the question that the Jewish people have struggled with since the last train left for Auschwitz. And the answer – the only answer – is that they didn’t believe in the totality of evil.

They knew, of course, that there were bad people in the world, but they didn’t believe in total evil, organized evil, without mercy or hesitation, cold evil that looked at them but didn’t see them, not even for a moment, as human.

According to their murderers, they weren’t people. They weren’t mothers or fathers, they weren’t somebody’s children. According to their murderers, they never celebrated the birth of a child, never fell in love, never took their old dog for a walk at two in the morning or laughed until they cried at the latest comedy by Max Ehrlich.

That’s what you need to kill another man. To be convinced that he isn’t a man at all. When the murderers looked upon the people who departed from this platform on their final journey they didn’t see Jewish parents, only Jews. They weren’t Jewish poets or Jewish musicians, only Jews. They weren’t Herr Braun or Frau Schwartz, only Jews.

Destruction starts with the destruction of identity. It is no surprise that the first thing done to them, when they arrived at Auschwitz, was to tattoo a number on their arm. It is hard to kill Rebecca Grunwald, a beautiful, fair-haired 18-year-old romantic, but Jew number 7762 A is easy to murder. Yet it remains the same person.

Seventy-five years later, do we know any more? Do we understand more?

The Holocaust placed before Israel a dual challenge:

On the one hand it taught us that we must survive at any price, and be able to defend ourselves at any price. Trainloads of Jews will never again depart from a platform anywhere in the world. The security of the State of Israel and its citizens must forever be in our hands alone. We have friends, and I stand here among friends. The new Germany has proven its friendship to Israel time and again, but we must not, and we cannot, rely on anyone but ourselves.

On the other hand, the Holocaust taught us that no matter the circumstances we must always remain moral people. Human morality is not judged when everything is ok, it is judged by our ability to see the suffering of the other, even when we have every reason to see only our own.

The Holocaust cannot be compared, and must not be compared, to any other event in human history. It was, in the words of the author K. Zetnik, a survivor of Auschwitz, “another planet.” We must not compare, but we must always remember what we learned.

A war like the one we fight today, which looks likely to continue and which the civilized world — whether it wants to or not — will be a part of, causes the two lessons we learned from the Holocaust to stand opposite one another.

The need to survive teaches us to strike hard to defend ourselves.

The need to remain moral, even when circumstances are immoral, teaches us to minimize human suffering as much as possible.

Our moral test is not taking place in a sterile laboratory or upon the philosopher’s page. In the past weeks, the moral test put before us has taken place during intense fighting. Thousands of rockets were fired at our citizens and armed terrorists dug tunnels next to kindergartens with the aim of killing or kidnapping our children. Anyone who criticizes us must ask themselves one question: “What would you do if someone came to your child’s school with a gun in their hand and started shooting?”

Hamas, as opposed to us, wants to kill Jews. Young or old, men or women, soldiers or civilians. They see no difference, because for them we are not people. We are Jews and that is reason enough to murder us.

Our moral test, even under these circumstances, is to continue to distinguish between enemies and innocents. Every time a child in Gaza dies it breaks my heart. They are not Hamas, they are not the enemy, they are just children.

Therefore Israel is the first country in military history that informs its enemy in advance where and when it will attack, so as to avoid civilian causalities. Israel is the only country that transfers food and medication to its enemy while the fighting continues. Israel is the only country where pilots abandon their mission because they see civilians on the ground. And despite it all, children die, and children are not supposed to die.

Here in Europe, and elsewhere in the world, people sit in their comfortable homes, watching the evening news, and tell us that we are failing the test. Why? Because in Gaza people suffer more. They don’t understand — or don’t want to understand — that the suffering of Gaza is the main tool of evil. When we explain to them, time after time, that Hamas uses the children of Gaza as human shields, that Hamas intentionally places them in the firing line, to ensure they die, that Hamas sacrifices the lives of the young to win its propaganda war, people refuse to believe it. Why? Because they cannot believe that human beings — human beings who look like them and sound like them — are capable of behaving that way. Because good people always refuse to recognize the totality of evil until it’s too late.

Time after time we ask ourselves why people in the world prefer to blame us when the facts so clearly indicate otherwise. Across the world, fanatic Muslims are massacring other Muslims. In Syria, in Iraq, in Libya, in Nigeria more children are killed in a week than die in Gaza in a decade. Every week, women are raped, homosexuals are hung and Christians are beheaded. The world watches, offers its polite condemnation, and returns obsessively to condemning Israel for fighting for our lives.

Some of the criticism stems from anti-Semitism. It has raised its ugly head once more. To those people we say: we will fight you everywhere. The days when Jews ran away from you are over. We will not be silent in the face of anti-Semitism and we expect every government, in every country, to stand shoulder to shoulder with us and fight this evil with us.

Other critics, perhaps more enlightened in their own eyes, prefer to blame only us for what happens in Gaza because they know we are the only ones who listen. They prefer to focus their anger upon us not in spite of but because we are committed to the same human values which Hamas rejects – compassion for the weak, rationality, protection of gay people, of women’s rights, of the freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

Let us not fool ourselves. Evil is here. It is around us. It seeks to hurt us. Fundamentalist Islam is an ultimate evil, and like the evil which came before it, has learned how to use all our tools against us: Our TV cameras, our international organizations, our commissions of inquiry and our legal system. Just as terror uses rockets and suicide bombers, it uses our inability to accept that someone would sacrifice the children of their people just to get a supportive headline or an eye-catching photograph.

Standing here, in this place, I want to say clearly that the leaders of Hamas, an anti-western, anti-Semitic terrorist organization, cannot be safe while they continue to target innocent civilians. Just as every European leader would do, just as the United States did with Osama Bin Laden, so we will pursue every leader of Hamas.

This is the evil which we all face and Israel stands at the front. Europe must know, if we will fail to stop them, they will come for you. We must do everything to avoid suffering and the death of innocents but we stand in the right place from which to say to the entire world: We will not board the train again. We will protect ourselves from total evil.

Thank you."
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Steve James on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:27 am

That’s what you need to kill another man. To be convinced that he isn’t a man at all.


Also something never to forget.
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Ian on Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:20 am

Interloper wrote:Have you not seen all the articles and videos posted of journalists (many of them non-Jews, in case you think it's all Jewish-Israeli propaganda...::)


You must be confusing me with someone else :)

I’ve never accused you of using “Jewish-Israeli propaganda”. Almost all my sources are the IDF, the UN, Israeli politicians, British mandate politicians (in the history thread) etc. I try to limit citing “New Historian” professors and extremely pro-Arab sources as much as possible. So when you accuse me of “willful blindness of facts”, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

On a similar note, I’m not pro-Hamas, pro-Sharia law, pro-Wahabism etc. Those movements are twisted and sick. Nor am I anti-Jew, anti-Israel, anti-Judaism etc. I’ve repeatedly stated this.

I don’t think Israel is “evil” like IS is evil. In fact if Israel meets IS on the Golan Heights or wherever, I hope they bomb them back to the Stone Age.

What I do believe in is the application of universal principles of justice, as expounded by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Court of Justice, customary international law, the Geneva Conventions etc.

I’m pro-Palestinian (NOT pro-Hamas) just as much as I’m pro-Israeli.

------------------------------------

… Hamas… using civilians as human shields?


First, I acknowledge that the use of human shields is a war crime, and Hamas’ use of human shields is in breach of international law.

Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 28
The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.


Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 51, paragraph 7, of Additional Protocol I
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations.


Second, I think it’s laughable for the IDF to make such a big deal about human shields.

In the past, they’ve regularly used human shields to enter houses which might be booby-trapped or harbor enemy combatants.

In the West Bank, it’s called the “neighbor procedure”. In the last military operation in Gaza, it was called the “Johnnie procedure”.

Goldstone Report
On the second day of detention, the Israeli armed forces began to use a number of the detainees as human shields. At this point the detainees had been without food and without sleep for a day. There were constant death threats and insults. To carry out house searches, the Israelis took off AD/03’s blindfold but he remained handcuffed. He was forced to walk in front of the soldiers and told that, if he saw someone in the house but failed to tell the Israeli soldiers, he would be killed. He was instructed to search each room in each house cupboard by cupboard. After one house was completed, he was taken to another house with a gun pressed against his head and told to carry out the same search there. He was punched, slapped and insulted throughout the process. AD/03 indicates that he was forced to do this twice while the group was held in this house for eight days. Others were also required to do it. On the first occasion he was forced to carry out searches in three houses and on the second occasion in four houses. AD/03 estimates that each time he was involved in searches for between one hour and one and a half hours.


Published testimonies of Israeli soldiers who took part in the military operations confirm the continuation of this practice, despite clear orders from Israel’s High Court to the armed forces to put an end to it and repeated public assurances from the armed forces that the practice had been discontinued.


Either we abide by one universal code of conduct – applicable to all humans – …or we don’t.

But let’s not be hypocritical.

------------------------------------

Have you not seen all of the protocols posted, of Israel taking huge pains to warn civilians (leaflets, telephone robo calls, etc.)


Yes of course I’m aware of the IDF’s warning system.

Surely you’re also aware that the UN already examined the effectiveness of roof-knocking, telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflet-dropping in 2009, and found them to be ineffective and potentially “reckless in the extreme”.

Goldstone Report
Roof-Knocking
The Mission is doubtful whether roof-knocking should be understood as a warning as such. In the context of a large-scale military operation including aerial attacks, civilians cannot be expected to know whether a small explosion is a warning of an impending attack or part of an actual attack. In relation to the incident at the Sawafeary house recounted above, the Mission cannot say for certain if this missile was meant to warn or to kill. It notes that, if this was meant as a warning shot, it has to be deemed reckless in the extreme.

The legal requirement is for an effective warning to be given. This means that it should not require civilians to guess the meaning of the warning. The technique of using small explosives to frighten civilians into evacuation, even if the intent is to warn, may cause terror and confuse the affected civilians.

The Mission does not have sufficient information to assess the accuracy of the Israeli Government’s claim that the warning shot method was used only when previous warnings (leaflets, broadcasts or telephone calls) had not been acted upon. However, in many circumstances it is not clear why another call could not be made if it had already been possible to call the inhabitants of a house. The Mission notes that these warnings all took place in situations where the view appears to have been reached that those in the house are civilians or predominantly civilians. If the choice is between making another call or firing a light missile that carries with it a significant risk of killing those civilians, the Mission is not convinced that it would not have been feasible to make another call to confirm that a strike was about to be made.

Finally, apart from the issue of fear and ambiguity, there is the question of danger. The idea that an attack, however limited in itself, can be understood as an effective warning in the meaning of article 57 (2) (c) is rejected by the Mission.

Telephone Calls
As regards the generic nature of some pre-recorded phone messages, the Mission finds that these lacked credibility and clarity, and generated fear and uncertainty. In substance, there is little difference between telephone messages and leaflets that are not specific. The Mission takes the view that pre-recorded messages with generic information may not be considered generally effective.

Leaflets & Radio Broadcasts
The leaflets and radio broadcasts that told people to leave their homes and head towards city centres were in most cases lacking in specificity and clarity: people could not be certain that the warnings were directed at them in particular, since they were being issued as far as they could tell to almost everyone, and they could not tell when they should leave since there was rarely an indication of when attacks would take place. Furthermore, in the circumstances created by the Israeli armed forces, people could not reasonably be expected to flee to what appeared to be even less safe places on the basis of such non-specific warnings. Therefore, the Mission does not consider such warnings to have been the most effective possible in the circumstances and, indeed, doubts that many were effective at all.




There are also details in the report about:

- attacking targets without prior warning
(e.g. the Al-Quds Hospital),

- advising people to evacuate to city centers and UN compounds, only to subject those areas to intense air attacks
(e.g. the UNRWA compound),

-legitimate reasons for Palestinians not wanting to leave after being warned
(e.g. physical disabilities, too frail, deaf…  suffering from shell shock and believe there’s “nowhere to go”… not being able to objectively evaluate where to go, or whether it would be safer to leave at all),

-killing people who were leaving locations where warnings had just been issued
(too many cases to mention).



Warnings are good and should be issued wherever possible.

However, they don’t absolve commanders or their subordinates from all further responsibility.

And they have to be effective. Israel’s are not.

------------------------------------

Yeah, Ian, Israel should lay down its arms and turn off Iron Dome so that its people can be killed by Hamas, just so it looks “fair”.


Well that’s a complete caricature of my position, and you know it :)

As for fighting “fair”, yes, it’s required under international law.



You’re aware, I’m sure, that in 2009, Israel already tried to argue that due to the “nature of the Hamas government”, the distinction between civilian and military parts of the government is no longer relevant.

This is in direct violation of the principle of distinction under international humanitarian law.



You’re also probably aware that since the 2006 Lebanon war, Israel has enacted the Dahiya doctrine (asymmetric urban warfare, deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure as a means of deterrence).

General Gadi Eisenkot, Israeli Northern Command chief
What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. […] We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. […] This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.


Eli Yishai, Deputy PM, 2009
It [should be] possible to destroy Gaza, so they will understand not to mess with us.

It is a great opportunity to demolish thousands of houses of all the terrorists, so they will think twice before they launch rockets.


This is in direct violation of the principle of proportionality under international humanitarian law.



What the British and Americans did in Dresden… what the Americans did at My Lai… those were war crimes, and no more excusable even though they were ostensibly fighting Nazis and Communists.

You can’t just “burn the field to kill the snakes”.

We have these laws for a reason…

------------------------------------

Aaaaaaaaaaanyway, that’s all I’m going to say on Israel-Palestine ;D

Back to the Video Forum for me.

Have a great weekend :)
Ian

 

Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:32 am

"A rocket fired from Gaza directly hit a synagogue in Ashdod, just hours before the beginning of Shabbat. Over 400 rockets have been launched at Israel since Hamas broke the ceasefire."

"Haha's strategy is based on assimilating into the civilian population and fighting from civilian areas. They shot at us from mosques, schools, and of course from civilian houses...

In the end, if they shoot at you from a mosque, as difficult as it is, you don't have an option. And it's not easy to shoot at a mosque. It's an important place for a lot of people. It's like a synagogue. But you get put in a situation where you have to return fire to the mosques, because that's where the terrorists are firing from.

You see a family's house and you see the clothes hanging outside...girls' dresses waving in the wind. And behind all this is a terrorist holding an AK-47, shooting at you.

You also see how Hamas exploits children. One example that happened in the battalion, is that we started to look for a terrorist that we knew was in a specific house. Suddenly, a small boy appeared. The terrorist grabbed him and escaped with him.

Just because a terrorist enters into a civilian area, it does not give him immunity. On the other hand, we have to think very carefully before we act. Because no one wants to injure innocent civilians. Especially women and children. It makes it very difficult to complete your goal of eliminating a terrorist, because he is hugging a small child. It was their turf, and they don't care whose home they're in and what you're going to do to it afterwards. For them, it's a great place to shoot at us from, or attack us, hide from us, or hide their weapons, or conceal the entrance points to their tunnels. We don't have much of a choice.

It's not our decision. The terrorists took the decision and put it in our hands...

It's not something we wanted or were hoping to happen. We are here because we have to be, not because we want to be. It came at a painful price, but a price we pay as soldiers. This is the price we pay so that civilians can sleep safely at night."
-- a young Israeli soldier
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Michael on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:41 am

'loper, can you make any direct responses to Ian's points? Thx.
Michael

 

Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Dajenarit on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:54 am

She hasn't made a direct response to anyone or anything on this thread. Thats why it went dead. Shes set to post her not at all propaganda articles and blog-posts.
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Re: Isreal shells another school

Postby Interloper on Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:08 pm

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Confl ... IDF-371989

Hamas fires rocket from near a UNRWA school, kills 4-year-old boy.
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