Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:57 am

I dont quite understand how resisting the arrest is overlooked in regards to what happens afterwards.
our president, maybe at this point I should say "the president" keeps talking about rule of law but seems to ignor
the point that the law was broken in the first place.
He never seems to get involved in any other cases but speaks of justice for all.

Instead of getting out in front leading, and explaining, he tacitly condones the actions while
at the same time trying to placate instead of educate.
How many investigations ordered so far failed to turn up anything
The Justice Department is investigating the circumstances surrounding Garner's death and whether civil rights were violated, law enforcement sources tell CNN. The ]investigation has been quietly proceeding for several months.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/03/polit ... ?hpt=hp_t2


7 months? really ::) they haven't found anything in 7 months and yet most seem to have concluded just watching the clip what happened?

interesting to read view points from the other side


I have often (of late) stated it sucks to be old. This morning I am so glad.
So you have a really big guy who doesn't want to be arrested. You talk for a bit, but at some point it is time to act. You reach out for a wrist control and he backs up, raises his hands (I would argue in a fending off motion) , so what do you do?

Once upon a time, a whack with the stick to one of his kneecaps would have dropped him like a sack of rocks. But god should forbid we actually strike someone.
So, much like the old days with a duster, you pile on board and take a wild ride to the ground. I applaud the cops of NYPD for being as polite and nice to the guy as they were (up to the point of the pile on), but at some point it is simply time to go to jail.

No strikes, no kicks, just pile on and take the ride on down to the ground. Handcuff and off we go....
Except this time, not all as normal. First, I would bet that these cops have made hundreds if not thousands of similar BS arrests without incident.

None of us was thrilled with such a detail or arrest, but the powers to be created this unit for a reason. NY wants their outrageous sin tax for cigarettes and people were beating the system by going to a normal state to by cigarettes and then re-sell them in NY where the taxes are huge. We can't have this, so make these guys go out and make BS arrests.


Back in the early 80's we learned of positional asphyxiation. Nothing like a dead duster hog tied face down in the back seat when you get to the station of MLK to make for a long shift.
Choke hold, I think not. I am old enough that not only was I taught and used a carotid hold, but also the good old (not really) bar arm choke hold. You ain't saying anything (especially "I can't breath") when you are being truly choked.

I am guessing positional asphyxia is what was causing his difficulty in breathing. Well damn it, stop resisting so I can handcuff you and roll your fat ass on your side!
So at the end of the day what to do? Fat people who don't want to cooperate get a free pass?

The press is happy to say it was a choke hold death. I do not think that is what the coroners report states. It is a litany of bad things, all leading to positional asphyxiation that caused this guys death.

Damn I'm glad I'm retired. To my younger partner's, hold on tight, its' turning into a wild ride.

http://www.policeone.com/Crowd-Control/ ... ody-death/
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:42 am

The New York congressman also suggested that the officers had no reason to stop suppressing Garner, even though he stressed multiple times that he could not breathe.
"People were saying that he said seven times, 'I can't breathe.' But if you can't breathe, you can't talk," King said. "So police hear that all the time."
King also defended the officer's decision to use the chokehold as an arrest procedure.

"In this case, a chokehold was not illegal," King said. "It is against department regulations, but as you look carefully, I don't think it was an intent to put him in a chokehold, because [the officer] does move the baton as he brings him down."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/03/polit ... le_sidebar

'I can't breathe.' But if you can't breathe, you can't talk," King said. "So police hear that all the time."

just as they also have people who pretend to give up by raising their hands up or not :-\ while still advancing on them.
anyone who has trained with a fire arm, understands the dangers in that.

lest see how long the "press" keeps this story going
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:35 am

Don't sell loosies (and cheat big gov and tobacco-corp of their revenue).
Don't jaywalk (and stay between those lines).
Don't wear those clothes.
Don't look suspicious, and
Everything will be alright,
You might make it through the night
in America.

Just don't be surprised at the chuckles when you complain about your rights being taken away.
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:40 am

You can add, don't say you can't breathe to that list.
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:20 am

What I Did After Police Killed My Son

Ten years later, we in Wisconsin passed the nation’s first law calling for outside reviews.

By MICHAEL BELL

 

August 15, 2014

After police in Kenosha, Wis., shot my 21-year-old son to death outside his house ten years ago — and then immediately cleared themselves of all wrongdoing — an African-American man approached me and said: “If they can shoot a white boy like a dog, imagine what we’ve been going through.”

I could imagine it all too easily, just as the rest of the country has been seeing it all too clearly in the terrible images coming from Ferguson, Mo., in the aftermath of the killing of Michael Brown. On Friday, after a week of angry protests, the police in Ferguson finally identified the officer implicated in Brown's shooting, although the circumstances still remain unclear.

I have known the name of the policeman who killed my son, Michael, for ten years. And he is still working on the force in Kenosha.

Yes, there is good reason to think that many of these unjustifiable homicides by police across the country are racially motivated. But there is a lot more than that going on here. Our country is simply not paying enough attention to the terrible lack of accountability of police departments and the way it affects all of us—regardless of race or ethnicity. Because if a blond-haired, blue-eyed boy — that was my son, Michael — can be shot in the head under a street light with his hands cuffed behind his back, in front of five eyewitnesses (including his mother and sister), and his father was a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who flew in three wars for his country — that’s me — and I still couldn’t get anything done about it, then Joe the plumber and Javier the roofer aren’t going to be able to do anything about it either.

***

READ MORE

SPECIAL REPORT

The Pitchforks Are Coming… For Us Plutocrats

By NICK HANAUER

POLITICS

The Politics of #Ferguson

By CHARLES D. ELLISON

I got the phone call at 2 a.m. on Nov. 9, 2004. It was my oldest daughter. She said you need to come to the hospital right away, Michael’s been shot by the police. My first gut reaction was, “Michael doesn’t do anything serious enough to get shot by a police officer.” I thought he’d gotten shot in the leg or whatever. When I arrived, I saw the district attorney huddled with about five police officers. The last time I saw my son alive he was on a gurney, with his head wrapped in a big towel and blood coming out of it. I learned that an officer had put his gun up directly to Michael’s right temple and misfired, then did it again, and shot him.

From the beginning I cautioned patience, though Michael’s mother and sister were in an uproar. They had watched him get shot. But as an Air Force officer and pilot I knew the way safety investigations are conducted, and I was thinking that this was going to be conducted this way. Yet within 48 hours I got the message: The police had cleared themselves of all wrongdoing. In 48 hours! They hadn’t even taken statements from several eyewitnesses. Crime lab reports showed that my son’s DNA or fingerprints were not on any gun or holster, even though one of the police officers involved in Michael’s shooting had claimed that Michael had grabbed his gun.

The officer who killed my son, Albert Gonzalez, is not only still on the force ten years later, he is also a licensed concealed-gun instructor across the state line in Illinois—and was identified by the Chicago Tribune in an Aug. 7 investigative story as one of “multiple instructors [who] are police officers with documented histories of making questionable decisions about when to use force.”

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and Michael Bell shake hands after the former passed a bill into law mandating that investigations of police officers be turned over to an outside party.

From the beginning I allowed the investigation to proceed and didn’t know it was a sham until many of the facts were discovered. But before long I realized a cover-up was under way. I hadn’t understood at first how closely related the DA and the police were—during his election campaign for judge, the DA had been endorsed in writing by every police agency in the county. Now he was investigating them. It was a clear conflict of interest.

The police claimed that one officer screamed that Michael grabbed his gun after they stopped him, for reasons that remain unclear though he was slightly intoxicated, and then Gonzalez shot him, sticking the gun so close against his temple that he left a muzzle imprint. Michael wasn’t even driving his own car. He’d been out with a designated driver, but the designated driver drank and was younger, and so my son made the decision to drive.

Michael Bell is a retired lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force.

Continue Reading »

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What I Did After Police Killed My Son

Ten years later, we in Wisconsin passed the nation’s first law calling for outside reviews.

By MICHAEL BELL

 

August 15, 2014

298909 Shares6922 Shares355 SharesPrint

After police in Kenosha, Wis., shot my 21-year-old son to death outside his house ten years ago — and then immediately cleared themselves of all wrongdoing — an African-American man approached me and said: “If they can shoot a white boy like a dog, imagine what we’ve been going through.”

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I could imagine it all too easily, just as the rest of the country has been seeing it all too clearly in the terrible images coming from Ferguson, Mo., in the aftermath of the killing of Michael Brown. On Friday, after a week of angry protests, the police in Ferguson finally identified the officer implicated in Brown's shooting, although the circumstances still remain unclear.

I have known the name of the policeman who killed my son, Michael, for ten years. And he is still working on the force in Kenosha.

Yes, there is good reason to think that many of these unjustifiable homicides by police across the country are racially motivated. But there is a lot more than that going on here. Our country is simply not paying enough attention to the terrible lack of accountability of police departments and the way it affects all of us—regardless of race or ethnicity. Because if a blond-haired, blue-eyed boy — that was my son, Michael — can be shot in the head under a street light with his hands cuffed behind his back, in front of five eyewitnesses (including his mother and sister), and his father was a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who flew in three wars for his country — that’s me — and I still couldn’t get anything done about it, then Joe the plumber and Javier the roofer aren’t going to be able to do anything about it either.

***

READ MORE

SPECIAL REPORT

The Pitchforks Are Coming… For Us Plutocrats

By NICK HANAUER

POLITICS

The Politics of #Ferguson

By CHARLES D. ELLISON

I got the phone call at 2 a.m. on Nov. 9, 2004. It was my oldest daughter. She said you need to come to the hospital right away, Michael’s been shot by the police. My first gut reaction was, “Michael doesn’t do anything serious enough to get shot by a police officer.” I thought he’d gotten shot in the leg or whatever. When I arrived, I saw the district attorney huddled with about five police officers. The last time I saw my son alive he was on a gurney, with his head wrapped in a big towel and blood coming out of it. I learned that an officer had put his gun up directly to Michael’s right temple and misfired, then did it again, and shot him.

From the beginning I cautioned patience, though Michael’s mother and sister were in an uproar. They had watched him get shot. But as an Air Force officer and pilot I knew the way safety investigations are conducted, and I was thinking that this was going to be conducted this way. Yet within 48 hours I got the message: The police had cleared themselves of all wrongdoing. In 48 hours! They hadn’t even taken statements from several eyewitnesses. Crime lab reports showed that my son’s DNA or fingerprints were not on any gun or holster, even though one of the police officers involved in Michael’s shooting had claimed that Michael had grabbed his gun.

The officer who killed my son, Albert Gonzalez, is not only still on the force ten years later, he is also a licensed concealed-gun instructor across the state line in Illinois—and was identified by the Chicago Tribune in an Aug. 7 investigative story as one of “multiple instructors [who] are police officers with documented histories of making questionable decisions about when to use force.”

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and Michael Bell shake hands after the former passed a bill into law mandating that investigations of police officers be turned over to an outside party. | Family of Michael Bell

From the beginning I allowed the investigation to proceed and didn’t know it was a sham until many of the facts were discovered. But before long I realized a cover-up was under way. I hadn’t understood at first how closely related the DA and the police were—during his election campaign for judge, the DA had been endorsed in writing by every police agency in the county. Now he was investigating them. It was a clear conflict of interest.

The police claimed that one officer screamed that Michael grabbed his gun after they stopped him, for reasons that remain unclear though he was slightly intoxicated, and then Gonzalez shot him, sticking the gun so close against his temple that he left a muzzle imprint. Michael wasn’t even driving his own car. He’d been out with a designated driver, but the designated driver drank and was younger, and so my son made the decision to drive.

Michael Bell is a retired lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force.

Continue Reading »

PAGE: 12

This story tagged under:Primary SourceFergusonPoliceShooting

More from POLITICO Magazine

INVESTIGATION

The Great Police Violence Cover-Up

By MICHAEL HIRSH

WASHINGTON AND THE WORLD

How Will the Pope Play in 2016?

By TOM KINGTON

LETTER FROM PRAGUE

It's Not Just Ukraine

By JEFFREY GEDMIN

VIEW COMMENTS

OUR LATESTWEEKLY NEWSLETTERPRINT ARCHIVEABOUT USWRITE FOR USFAQ

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Last edited by grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:39 am

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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:43 pm

Looks like we should add don't film the police to the list too.

http://ringoffireradio.com/2014/12/gran ... s-killing/
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:50 pm

The grand jury that decided not to charge a police officer in the chokehold death of Eric Garner heard from 50 witnesses, a judge said Thursday.

Over nine weeks, the grand jury heard from 22 civilians, the judge said in a brief order. The remaining witnesses were police officers, emergency medical workers and doctors.

The grand jury also considered 60 exhibits, including four videos, records of police policies, medical information and photographs of the scene, the judge said.

The judge, Stephen Rooney of state court, disclosed the details in response to a prosecutor's request that limited information be released. The prosecutor did not ask for the release of exhibits of testimony, the judge said. Grand jury proceedings are secret unless a judge orders otherwise.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gra ... es-n261681


The grand jury that decided not to charge a police officer in the chokehold death of Eric Garner heard from 50 witnesses, a judge said Thursday.


50 witnesses and more video not released.
according to some here some how they came to the wrong conclusions?
he died from the effects of resisting arrest, apparently he had been arrested many times before for the same offense.
this time for what ever reason he felt it was enough and so resisted it.
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:52 pm

according to some here


You realize that is a big joke. If you think that only "some here" feel that the GJ was wrong, you're out of touch. Turn on your tv --just for a few minutes at 6 ;).
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:55 pm

Steve James wrote:
according to some here


You realize that is a big joke. If you think that only "some here" feel that the GJ was wrong, you're out of touch. Turn on your tv --just for a few minutes at 6 ;).

Im not address those, only the ones here.
dont own a tv,,, ;)
its not a question of wrong, it is a question of how things are presented and people turning into sheeple.

lets try this:

did he or did he not resist being arrested?
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:59 pm

just as they also have people who pretend to give up by raising their hands up or not :-\ while still advancing on them.
anyone who has trained with a fire arm, understands the dangers in that.


Hmm, always interesting to hear from a health care expert --or ex-pert. Seems to me that when someone say that he can't breathe, the next step is to find out the problem. Well, having trained with firearms, I can't see the danger in checking a handcuffed man (who people have called a "heart attack waiting to happen") while he is laying on the sidewalk saying that he can't breathe. Why don't you post the youtube video to show what you mean, speaking a trained pro. Aw, here ya go, explain the threat he was posing with his calls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT66U_Ftdng
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:13 pm

does this mean he was not resisting arrest?

I had asked "G" as to what he thought because of his and some others background.
To an untrained eye, the PPCT Shoulder Pin would probably look just like a choke hold

should be a lot of "trained eyes" here.

Ok, what do my brothers and sisters behind the badge think of this? It looks like Ofcr. Pantaleo was attempting to use a "Shoulder Pin" (PPCT) hold to gain compliance. Note that he has entered the hold by slipping under Garner's arm / shoulder just as in the PPCT action. To an untrained eye, the PPCT Shoulder Pin would probably look just like a choke hold. Thoughts? I would especially like to hear from some PPCT / SSGT / H2H combatives instructors. J.O.
LEO - Central Alabama, 13 years

http://www.policeone.com/Crowd-Control/ ... ody-death/
this officer seems to think its some type of shoulder pin.

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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby Steve James on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:29 pm

Um, how about addressing the video of the actual incident. How about starting from your point about what a trained firearms person would see as the threat?
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:32 pm

I started a new thread since the N.Y. case is a separate case.
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Re: Holder Orders DOJ to Do Further Autopsy on Michael Brown

Postby grzegorz on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:43 pm

chud wrote:
Peacedog wrote:Don't be a piece of shit petty criminal. Don't commit crimes. Do not resist arrest.



Yep, common sense. Things are not going to go well if you resist arrest.
I'm reminded of Lorraine Bracco's line from Goodfellas: "It wasin
better to be polite and call the lawyer."


Sometimes it's easier said than done.

In this case Garner broke up a fight and the police knew of him and started questioning him. He hadn't done anything wrong, but as known for selling loose cigarettes. Say what you will but most people would react similarly when grabbed me for no reason at all, some us still believe we have constitutional rights. The fact is in some neighborhoods the police are just another gang.

In fact I heard an interview with the head of the Oath Keepers saying that about Ferguson PD after seeing what was happening there.
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