test women in Marine infantry course asked to leave

[windwalker]

@ AndyS,

there not American units.

wew almost head me there.
they'er severing in places where they present a softer face or intact with the local woman.

when you find them in sustained operations where they "engage with and kill the enemy" let me know.
actually dont

This whole action is part of a larger action to be PC.

Body armor for women: Pentagon is pushed to find something that fits

Army opens Ranger School to women, a historic leap toward equality

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2 ... d-equality

dont know if is actual policy or not.
the bottom line is this, its being done because the ban on women in combat units will be dropped in 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/us/pe ... d=all&_r=0
Pentagon Is Set to Lift Combat Ban for Women

normally this would be a non starter,
but

due to the fact the most or our political leaders have not served, will not serve, and probably couldn't serve.
they have no understanding of what it takes, or the issues involved.
its all being done for reasons other then combat efficiency.

The military leadership, for what ever resaon seems to be rolling over for this ,,,glad I did my time and retried.

any press, is just a way to more or less prime the pumps so to speak.

Ask an senior NCO below the grade of E9 they tend to get political at that level.
and they will tell you, its probably not a good idea off record.

why people want to be PC with others lives I dont know nor understand
there are no studies that show its a good idea

I just dont get it, no women competes against men on the NBA, Olympics or host of other things that men engage in, in fact its often contested

In 1967, the Polish sprinter Ewa Klobukowska was barred from the sport because she failed the chromosomal test. In the 1980s, the Spanish hurdler Maria José Martínez Patino was disqualified because the test revealed that she was born with a Y chromosome. Her eligibility was reinstated in 1988.

Complicated cases are common. For example, a disorder known as congenital adrenal hyperplasia gives women excess testosterone from a source other than the testes — the adrenal glands. In mild cases, genitals may appear normal and often no one suspects the problem. Women with the disorder are allowed to compete as females.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/sport ... wanted=all

because it gives them an unfair advantage that all other woman cant over come.
why are there no women groups protesting this? because they understand that to do so, would open the door and soon those who are "genetically only female" would not be able to compete.

of course in the Army where one is killing people and others depend on one being able to keep up function as a team, weaponry is designed for men, and a host of other issues ,
it doent matter...getting dead is an equal opportunity event in war,,,,wouldnt you or anyone else want your team to have the best advantages for not getting dead.

maybe not

[Dmitri]

I understand what you're saying and I hate the PC crap, BUT -- what about the transgender folks? Someone could have been born a man and has all those correspondent "physical advantages" (at least statistically-speaking, which in my book doesn't really mean anything, but let's put that aside) for strenuous activities, etc., but is living as a woman. Gender identity can be a bitch. It would seem to me that it would not go very well with your theory/ideas here on this subject.

[windwalker]

the bottom line is combat efficiency and cost.
you have a squad of 5 one is Trans, you have 2 billeting spaces can hold 3.
what do you do? your the squad leader.

its called cohesiveness, bonding, someone trans might, or probably would tend to disrupt this process either overtly or in overtly.
why do it? your dealing with others lives. why do something that one is not forced to or doesnt have to? except for PC.
think shower facilities and all the other stuff.

now some might compare it to being black, and the issues they had in the military.
which is funny, having talked with many black NCOs who hated being compared to the LBGT community
they felt that the LBGT community was riding on the tails of hard earned rights, and other issues that they had over come.



now the people who make these decisions are not the ones that have to make them work or deal with
the problems issues it will and has caused.
same with gays, in the military,,,none of the political leaders would want to go to a gay bar, but ask others to
live with others that for them its normal.

your in a squad 3 of the 5 are gay for example, your 1 one the ones who are not,
what billeting space would you want to be in? they hold 3 or more.

the DADT was the best real option. as it id now, it just present more issues that those making the rules have never, will never deal with.
the military is really a different "life" style one that the American leader ship and public has lost touch with

[Steve James]

I just dont get it, no women competes on the NBA, Olympics or host of other things that men engage in, in fact its often contested

Right. "No women competes on the NBA, Olympics" --but, of course, you mean "against men."

Anyway, I remember having this argument with a guy during in the 70s. He said that there was "no woman" who could "ever" beat him. Well, he could never know; but, I don't think he'd have any chance against Moolah, or run as fast as a high school girl on the track team, or lift anywhere near as much as a 53kg female Olympic weightlifter. But, ok, point taken, that was his opinion.

Many men still have that opinion, and that is why there is a debate in our society (and others) about the proper roles for women. That fact would make integration of women into American light infantry problematic. It's a social issue because, contrary to any claims about their ability, women are doing front line duty for other countries and have served with distinction in such units in recent history. Tell the Russians that women can't be soldiers. But, as Greg pointed out, they were soldiers out of necessity. We don't have any such necessity here at this time.

I am highly suspicious of the idea that any group shouldn't be allowed to try. Our armed forces are made up of volunteers. There is no draft, and recruitment is difficult. I think that the best, most capable, person should get the assignment. Lest we forget, it is not a question of whether women are in the services; it's just a matter of their units and assignments. Female medics might not slog through the boonies on recon, but they're killed just the same when the camps are overrun. There will be no time in the future when women will not be put in harm's way --whether they're wearing camo paint or makeup, and whether there are men around or not. That's despite any opinions about them.

[Dmitri]

your in a squad 3 of the 5 are gay for example, your 1 one the ones who are not,
what billeting space would you want to be in? they hold 3 or more.

Me personally -- I don't give a crap about anyone's sexual orientation. But apparently that's not the case with many, many others...

[windwalker]

I am highly suspicious of the idea that any group shouldn't be allowed to try.

good, you deal with it, you make the call

you have a squad of 5, 1 is a woman you need to send 2 out on a long range patrol with high risk of enemy engagement.
you make the call?

its not about trying , there are no test that have been done that show as group this would be a good idea.
so you and others are willing to risk lives of others to "test" something out
ok

I dont care about any other armies, the other armies and militairs do a lot of things the US military is not allowed or will not do.
NONE of the other Armies are equal to the US military in combat scope, efficiency or lethality

NONE

[Steve James]

you have a squad of 5, 1 is a woman you need to send 2 out on a long range patrol with high risk of enemy engagement.
you make the call?

I send the two best. I don't go eeny, meeny, miney, mo.

its not about trying , there are no test that have been done that show as group this would be a good idea.

Same thing as before integration, too. And, you're talking about the US military.

I dont care about any other armies, the other armies and militairs do a lot of things the US military is not allowed or will not do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just because women in other countries have served in combat with and against men, it doesn't mean a thing about your opinion of their capabilities. Cause we're the US, and we're the best cause we don't let our women fight.

As a chauvinist, and someone who likes to hold doors and do gentlemanly stuff, I agree with keeping women out of battles. I know that most men have been socialized to be protective of women. That socialization is real and has to be considered. The difference is that I acknowledge this as my own issue and that it has nothing to do with whether a woman can fight.

The macho shit just doesn't impress. It's agreed that the only people who like war are psycho, and few ever want to be in that situation.

[Steve James]

your in a squad 3 of the 5 are gay for example, your 1 one the ones who are not, what billeting space would you want to be in?

Afraid of gang rape? or that the gayness will rub off?
Seriously, I'm sure that gays and straights have shared bunks already (with or without DADT). Moreover, for most guys, even if they're 100% certain of another guy's heterosexuality, it's still uncomfortable to make spoons. That is, unless it's -10 F, and then they're too busy saving their asses to worry about who the other guy likes to diggle on his free time.

[Peacedog]

Windwalker,

I never worked with the ROK SOF soldiers, but their reputation proceeds them as some very hardcore folks. Same thing with GROM (Polish special operations).

That said, I see a conflict in a place like Korea involving some very high intensity, close quarters and short duration warfare. I don't see the need for soldiers to throw 40kg on their back and walk 40 km with it. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.

[windwalker]

starting to feel like I'm dealing with a bunch of 2ndLT. PLT leaders.
pointless at times.

Oo-rah! Ain't that the truth!

That said, having served in a variety of support and special mission units, mixed gender units are generally a real pain in the ass. The men in the unit end up getting disproportionally tasked to perform the more physical tasks as the women can't keep up. And that doesn't even get into the human factors crap you have from mixing men and women in high stress environments.

On my end, I don't see the combat multiplier to be gained from bringing women into the combat arms career fields. I do see a world of ass pain for the NCO and Officer corps involved.

thank you for your service and support.
same for any others I may have missed.

its the officers, and politicians driving this.
Officers trying to get promoted, getting their ticket punched, politicians never having served
trying to get elected or re elected.

00:49:00 combat duty is the foundation of a successful career

true then as now...not much has changed.

[windwalker]

Windwalker,

I never worked with the ROK SOF soldiers, but their reputation proceeds them as some very hardcore folks. Same thing with GROM (Polish special operations).

That said, I see a conflict in a place like Korea involving some very high intensity, close quarters and short duration warfare. I don't see the need for soldiers to throw 40kg on their back and walk 40 km with it. Maybe I am looking at it wrong.

we have some 30k troops stationed there. 2ID.
we no longer guard the border or the "Z" The ROKs took over long ago.
a lot of things changed since I was there in the 70s. in the 70s they still had martial law.

In answer to your question, its called endurance, and being able to move quickly from one place to another.
I dont think the many here really understand the kind of ground and speed at which a grunt unit can cover.


most units are MECH INF. with heavy armor units and the kind of artillery units we have, coupled with air support the initial encounter would be over very fast.
really depends on the support or lack of from China,
n korea, has small nukes this is also a game changer.
in a way it works for both sides as neither really wants to IMO waste the peninsula.

[windwalker]

your in a squad 3 of the 5 are gay for example, your 1 one the ones who are not,
what billeting space would you want to be in? they hold 3 or more.

Me personally -- I don't give a crap about anyone's sexual orientation. But apparently that's not the case with many, many others...

I'm betting you and Steve, dont hang out in gay bars, could be wrong.
not my cup of tea.

but you both have no problems asking others to do what you, normally would not want to, that is of course
unless you like hanging out at gay bars.

this is not to say they are not good troops, nor unable to do the job
only to say that IMO DADT was probably the best option.

all Im saying is that it does present problems that normally would not
have occurred. And yes, Steve, some female soldiers have been raped
by other female soldiers,,,doesent make the news as many other things
dont.

@ steve,
You mentioned the cold.
many soldiers die each yr in tracked vec. by opening the inner engine
panels idling the eng. trying to keep warm. In 4 deuce mortar tracks they typically dont have heat
for the crew fearing it will set of the mortar rounds


thats for mech units,,they also have to be able to dismount them and mount them from the tracked or other vech used to carry them.

The M2 could be disassembled into a separate mortar tube (105 lbs. [47.72 kg.]), standard (53 lbs. [24.09 kg.]), and baseplate (175 lbs. [79.54 kg.]) to allow it to be carried by its crew.[1] The tube had a screw-in cap at the bottom that had a built-in fixed firing pin. The "standard" was a recoiling hydraulic monopod that could be adjusted for elevation. The baseplate had long handles on either side to make it easier to carry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_4.2_inch_mortar

Another good trick is to take an Army blanket or poncho and warp it around
a truck exhaust letting the insides fill up with exhaust..of course one shouldn't breath it

cold weather gear is not big on the Armies priority list, there is a saying that the best grunt is one that's pissed off, they do a good job of setting conditions that make for the best grunts.

had a troop one time, he was a Satanist.
even had it on his dog tags, under religion.

black candles, upside down cross the whole nine yards.
it was causing problems with his room mates.
we asked him to put the stuff in his wall locker, they all shared
the same space.

had it been the other way around I believe we would have taken the same actions.

update:

interesting we called it 4 duce

but apparently it was replaced, maybe they just kept the name

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M30_mortar

Due to this heavy weight the mortar was most often mounted in a tracked mortar carrier of the M113 family. This vehicle mounted mortar was crewed by 5 people: the track commander (mortar sergeant/gun commander), gunner, assistant gunner, loader and vehicle driver. Ground mounting of the mortar was time consuming and strenuous as a hole had to be dug for the base plate of the mortar to rest in, sandbags had to filled and placed around the base plate to stabilize it and to protect the exposed ammunition. Also this decreased the accuracy of the weapon as the recoil from firing caused the base plate to shift in the ground. This movement also made the crew have to "lay" the gun back on the aiming stakes more often, causing a temporary lack of fire while the weapon was re-positioned and re-sighted back to its original reference point.

now again thats 5 males, not females

[windwalker]

fwiw: im done with this thread.
carry on.

I could go on and on about billeting and other issues
about performance issues, height and wight standards
and all the other stuff.

at the end of the day it does not add to combat efficiency
it puts others at risk and uses scarce resources for med care.
as i said it doesnt mean they dont serve with honer and distinction
just that IME in front line units its not something I would recommend or
endorse.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
@ AndyS,

there not American units.

wew almost head me there.
they'er severing in places where they present a softer face or intact with the local woman.

when you find them in sustained operations where they "engage with and kill the enemy" let me know.
actually dont
SNIP

You obviously did not watch the videos. They are not there in a PR role, they are doing front-line medical service. They are operating with infantry from patrol bases, patrols, taking part in operations and working amid (and even engaging) in firefights.

You are right on one thing: They are not American. And the US Armed Forces today are top notch, no question - a decade plus of combat experience. on top of their lavish equipment scale, has seen to that.

Even so, that does not mean other armed forces don't have good systems, units, training, etc. If you speak to active service US soldiers today who are posted to 2ID, you will find that a lot of them have a lot of respect for some of the allies they have served with - ROKs here, Brits, Estonians, French, etc in Afghan - and others not.

[grzegorz]

SNIP
Perhaps, but if shit goes down and a foreign power invades us killing off hundreds of thousands of grunts and civilians (much like what happened to the Russians) you can bet that there will no choice but to put women on the frontline in which case all this talk about carrying a 100 pounds up a hill goes out the window.
SNIP

QFT

sorry but there wont be any front line, actually there probably wont be any line.

No.