xian tian

[mixjourneyman]

Hi all,
long time no see, eh?


I just wanted to drop a quick observational note about xiantian practice here:

The martial arts conception of Xiantian and the Daoist conception of Xiantian are slightly different.
When martial artists, especially bagua people, talk about xiantian, what they are usually referring to are movements or concepts based on the pre heaven arrangement of the trigrams. Daoists typically view xiantian as the mystery gate, or a physiological side effect of meditation which causes the mind to go from a liminal to subliminal state. The direct side effect of the mystery gate is the development of pre heaven qi, and that is the clue to practitioners that they have entered into the subliminal state for a short time.
When martial artists use the concept of xiantian, it can be somewhat benefited by understanding Daoist xiantian. If we look at the pre heaven state as something which is derived from calming down and briefly stopping the post heaven state, then in terms of martial arts practice, we can contextualize some important thing such as attention to pre and post practice standing exercises such as zhanzhuang.
If Zhanzhuang is used kind of in the way we would charge a battery after its use, then we can use it to collect all of the post heaven energy we develop during movement and then refine and store it in the dantian.
If we replace standing with meditation, it is also possible to refine the energy much more deeply and use the benefit of increased oxygen intake, smooth and unimpeeded blood flow, and mental clarity to enter the pre heaven state much more effectively.
The benefit of this is to give the CNS a break, enter a restful state, and allow the breath to regulate and calm itself. This can be beneficial in developing yuanjing, or jing energy that cycles throughout the body, and can also lead to developing deeper states of meditation and perception.

I hope this is somewhat useful and if anyone finds errors, please feel free to chime in and correct me.

[GrahamB]

Het mix!

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I like it.

[yeniseri]

"Pre and post heaven" terminology has always eluded me so I try to translate in my own "mind essence" (understanding or lack thereof, observation, practice, behavior and stuff
I hear, I read, it is explained and I come to some conclusion but through experience, as long as you train whatever you train and are proficient, the benefits are usually beyond the physical.

I hang around with the fat, the ugly, the ignorant, the wise, the rich, the poor but the only certainty is that we will all die regardless of stuff, or lack of it.
Observe heaven (call it luck, opportunity, behavior, nature,) be active, do what you need and everything will fall into place.

[Bao]

. If we look at the pre heaven state as something which is derived from calming down and briefly stopping the post heaven state, then in terms of martial arts practice, we can contextualize some important thing such as attention to pre and post practice standing exercises such as zhanzhuang.

briefly stopping the post heaven state how? Why?
Contextualize how?

If we replace standing with meditation, it is also possible to refine the energy much more deeply and use the benefit of increased oxygen intake, smooth and unimpeeded blood flow, and mental clarity to enter the pre heaven state much more effectively.

Why replace standing? Why is standing not meditation?

I hope this is somewhat useful and if anyone finds errors, please feel free to chime in and correct me.

There's a lot of different interpretations of these concepts. The problem as I see it is that it often stops with theory. How do you transfer theory into practice?

IMHO and IME, CIMA is all about xiantian aspects.

[mixjourneyman]

Hi bao,
The reason I separated daoist and martial art xia tian was to address the problem you mentioned.
If we use Huang yuanji's text as an example of the latter development of how xiantian is viewed
天地未判以前，此道悬于太空。
Before heaven and earth were separated, the way was suspended in great emptiness.

天地即壁而后此道奇诸天壤。
After the sovereignty of heaven and earth, the way held apart heaven and earth.

是道也，何道也？
先天地而长存，后天地而不敝。
The real way, why was it dao?
before heaven and earth was long stored, after heaven and earth it was not injured.

So we can see by this that huang understood xiantian as being a state suspended in emptiness, laozi called this 无为， non action. Houtian is supported by xiantian,just like the qi is supported by jing.

So we can say that in meditation the pre heaven must be an inactive phase where thought is not happening. In this frame of thinking, any activity which requires the use of intent to act is considered as 有为 to have motive, and 后天。
So 玄门 ，mystery gate is seen as genuine xiantian, but the effect of the energy developing from entering the mystery gate ends up being evidence of entry into xia tian, rather than actually being the xiantian state
I think textually this is a very common understanding, and also in keeping with laozi.
Martial arts,medicine, and non daoist qigong will view xiantian quite differently.

[Bao]

I think you make a differentiation that's really not there. You write "When martial artists use the concept of xiantian, it can be somewhat benefited by understanding Daoist xiantian." But in Chinese internal martial arts xiantian concept comes directly from Daoism. Neidan is daoist practice and IMA takes most of it's vocabulary and understanding of concepts directly from neidan and daoist practice. When IMA-artists speak about xiantian it's not anbout arrangement. Sun Lutang for instance said many things about xiantian practice, like "develop and use xiantian/pre-Natal qi, not houtian/post-Natal qi." And "internal arts aim to use xiantian/pre-Natal qi, external arts only use houtian/post-Natal qi". It can be hard to grasp if a person is not accustomed with the terms, but still, it's really through practical practice it's understood and everything comes together. If you have a good teacher that understand the (internal) martial art then everything about xiantian of meditation, mind, intent etc is already there.

[mixjourneyman]

Yes, I agree that the Xiantian term comes from Daoism, but there is a problem in how it is interpreted in martial arts.
It becomes more and more clear throughout the history of Neidan, even before neidan existed in any clear way, that to observe the pre natal state requires complete stillness so that it becomes possible to enter into "action without action." Qi Gong, martial arts, calligraphy and other practices with meditative aspects can only go to the level of creating hou tian energy. When martial artists talk about Xiantian, usually what they really mean is deeply refining the houtian energy so that it becomes part of their nervous system and automatic. Xiantian practice can only come about by crossing the mystery gate, which can only be as a result of silent meditation. I think although people like Sun Lutang were very accomplished in Daoist practice, they misrepresented how the practice works by attempting to use terms like dan and xiantian in martial arts training.

the purpose of my original post was to point out that the post heaven energy we develop from doing martial arts can be refined through standing or meditation to become a pre heaven practice.
I don't think you will find anyone alive today who has really developed Neidan from only doing martial arts practice.

Lv Dongbin said
唯有真心，物物俱含載。不用之时全体在。
Only with the true mind (stillness), all life is stored in this track.
Don't use this time (practice) on the existence of the whole body.

The parentheses are mine, just to indicate something.

T/e thing is that id we are willing to allow the x8antian aspects of martial arts to align with the yijing rather than neidan, we will be much more likely to find a suitable answer for why they are included.
Even Wang maozhai rejected xingyi at the end of his life, taking up the Buddhist Dharma instead. There is a different, non physical aspect in Pre heaven practice.

[Bao]

Qi Gong, martial arts, calligraphy and other practices with meditative aspects can only go to the level of creating hou tian energy. When martial artists talk about Xiantian, usually what they really mean is deeply refining the houtian energy so that it becomes part of their nervous system and automatic. Xiantian practice can only come about by crossing the mystery gate, which can only be as a result of silent meditation. I think although people like Sun Lutang were very accomplished in Daoist practice, they misrepresented how the practice works by attempting to use terms like dan and xiantian in martial arts training.

Respectfully disagree to 100%.

the purpose of my original post was to point out that the post heaven energy we develop from doing martial arts can be refined through standing or meditation to become a pre heaven practice.
I don't think you will find anyone alive today who has really developed Neidan from only doing martial arts practice.[/quote]

Respectfully disagree, 100%. Meditation brings none to the practice that can not already be found there. The internal arts, as well as higher levels of Chinese external martial arts, are designed to build up Xiantian energy. Not all schools teach correctly or even come near xiantian practice, but the core of the arts are all about xiantian practice.


When my mind is silent, without wants or worries, even all good things making no voice, this is called Nonpolarity. When active, when there is movement, this is like the Grand Polarity. But when passive, when there is stillness, this is like Nonpolarity. When movement starts, then the active aspect is generated. When movement reaches it limit, then the passive aspect is generated. As stillness begins, there is softness. As stillness peaks, there is hardness.
- Gu Ruzhang
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-ruzhang/

[mixjourneyman]

I guess the next question would be, what then is xiantian in the martial arts?
Lv dongbin again
养气忘言守，降心为无为，
To cultivate qi forget to say "protect"
Direct the mind to action without action.

为无为 action without action is one of the key principles of congealing Dan, it can't be done by moving.

We also have laozi's concept of 损 and 失 subtract and lose.
Martial arts focusefocuses on building rather than subtraction. Even taijiquan follows this principle. If the active mind has to be used to direct intent, it can't be truly empty. Dan is the result of pure emptiness with the seed of the real mind to nurture it.

[Franklin]

for the martial arts:
are you talking about pre and post heaven in:
- training
- application
- cultivation

they can all be different things at different times
when used as metaphor

if you are using them as taoist cultivation terms
then they are not metaphor anymore

- but then again- put two taoists in a room and they will argue the terms all day
-unless they have achieved the preheaven
then they will just sit and drink tea without having to say anything...

[Bao]

为无为 action without action is one of the key principles of congealing Dan, it can't be done by moving.

Hua Tuo's animal exercises were movement, not standing postures. There's also traditional neidan practice as how to stand, walk, even how to rest and sleep to nourish the yuanqi. Neidan practice is mostly about movement. Sitting meditation came later when taoists met up with buddhists.

Action without action is about complete tranquility or complete stillness. That is IMHO a too extreme interpretation. Breath is also movement, without it we die. I would personally see the expression more as not forcing, letting nature take it's own course. This also goes hand in hand with the "original state" which is a natural state.

[Deadmonki]

Neidan practice is mostly about movement. Sitting meditation came later...

Bao,

I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on this, if you have time.

Best,

[Bao]

Neidan practice is mostly about movement. Sitting meditation came later...

Bao,

I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on this, if you have time.

Best,

There's a lot about this. No, no time for the moment, I'll have to think about this.

But if you are interested, you could pick up Liu Da's book on Chinese Health practice, "Taoist Health Exercise Book". There's some interesting and very basic nei dan practice here that could interest you.

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Health-Exe ... 042&sr=1-5

[Deadmonki]

There's a lot about this. No, no time for the moment, I'll have to think about this.

But if you are interested, you could pick up Liu Da's book on Chinese Health practice, "Taoist Health Exercise Book". There's some interesting and very basic nei dan practice here that could interest you.

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Health-Exe ... 042&sr=1-5

I'm sure there is

Fair enough. I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts. Whether here, in another thread or in pm if you'd rather.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

Best,

[D_Glenn]

There's nothing in Liu Da's book.

The key point is that to progress from stage of acquiring post heaven qi to building up your own vitality aka golden elixir requires that you go from sitting or standing practices to moving practice, BUT you still need to be able to get into the meditative state when moving.

I've written a few things about this: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18886

.