xian tian

[Bao]

There's nothing in Liu Da's book.
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No? Not even Hua Tuo's five aninals are mentioned? I have a hard time to believe that I mixed it up with some other book.... But I'll have to have a look at it then...

[D_Glenn]

There's nothing in Liu Da's book.
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No? Not even Hua Tuo's five aninals are mentioned? I have a hard time to believe that I mixed it up with some other book.... But I'll have to have a look at it then...

Yeah. They're "mentioned". He mentions a few things but fails to actually describe anything.

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[Bao]

Yeah. They're "mentioned". He mentions a few things but fails to actually describe anything.

well... true dat ...

[D_Glenn]

The Five Animal Frolics were an old Daoyin but the Daoyin practices that Deadmonki knows are more progressed and the theory is intact.

I thought you recommended the book because he mentions Daoist Jogging?

But that practice evolved into various Circle Walking practices because you could do it in a room without anyone being able to watch.
So stage 1 is acquiring post-heaven qi through standing, sitting or lying down practices; but stage 2 is done by using Xing Zhuang (Moving Rooted/Meditative/Grounded) to acquire pre-heaven vitality/ elixir. But in our YSB lineage this is why we do Circle Walking everyday and ideally Standing.
One could do Sitting practices but unless you started doing them around age 12 then you will want to take an herb called Dan Shan often referred to as "The Meditator's Herb", and it promotes blood circulation throughout your whole body as blood will tend to stagnate in your legs when in the sitting postures.
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[Bao]

I thought you recommended the book because he mentions Daoist Jogging?
But that practice evolved into various Circle Walking practices because you could do it in a room without anyone being able to watch.
.

Jogging, sitting, walking, sleeping... yes. I don't remember any good names of them. And you can do this practice anywhere, with or without people watching. It's about something that goes into your daily life, a practice that is never forced but becomes second nature.

So stage 1 is acquiring post-heaven qi through standing, sitting or lying down practices; but stage 2 is done by using Xing Zhuang (Moving Rooted/Meditative/Grounded) to acquire pre-heaven vitality/ elixir. But in our YSB lineage this is why we do Circle Walking everyday and ideally Standing.

Before Daoism was mixed with Buddhism, the daoists did neidan and dao yin without the requirement of physical stillness and sitting meditation. The prerequisite of sitting meditation or physical stillness is a late interpretation. There is no such requirement for developing any kind of qi or small heaven circulation. Post-heaven qi is what is used everyday with physical effort and with physical exercise. IME, sitting meditation can work as a short cut for a quicker grasp of a certain meditative state and help you get deeper into this state. But to be fair, in both BGZ and TJQ the meditative mind can be reached quite fast through normal practice which in itself has a self-hypotizing quality through the movements. I haven't practiced any sitting meditation for more than a decade. After years of both sitting meditation and chinese traditional IMA practice, I actually found the latter to be faster and more reliable to reach a deep meditative state than sitting meditation. After "getting it" physical stillness really loose it's meaning. Sun Lutang wanted the students to stand in approx twenty minutes before starting the form (tai chi or bagua). This is a good practice for beginners. But later, starting the form should act more or less like a switch to enter a deep meditative state. It will be there as soon as you move into your tai chi or bagua shenfa. And your tai chi or bagua shenfa can not really "live" without a certain meditative state. They [body and mind] are in conjunction and will depend on each other.

@Deadmonki, I think I have said everything I can on the few lines above. But I wrote some on how xian tian aspects can be understood and practice in tai chi practice. It's not perfectly clear and have some grammatical issues I think. Maybe I will try to re-write it. Well, I don't know if this will help you. But in tai chi, "xian tian" or prenatal aspects are not about a special "set" of movements. all about "natural movements", listening to the body and letting your body teach you. The thinking that I try to express here is also quite close to older pre-Buddhist dao yin practice.

... you should “let your body do some of the work by itself, learn how your body wants to move without forcing it.” There are many good reasons to why you need to learn how to listen on your body, and slow form practice is an excellent tool for this purpose.

.....

I found a great quote in this blog[link in the post]:

“When we learn to love our bodies for exactly as they are, we learn to cherish and adore them, listen to them, give them what they need and move them how they wish to be moved.”

It says a lot about what great Tai Chi practice is all about. And it says a lot about natural movements. Or at least it’s a key to access your natural movements and to start developing your Prenatal Qi.

.....

[when practicing]Just feel your body. First examine your body as it moves, be sure that you are comfortable and move relaxed. Now amongst things, you should try to feel:

what the transmission of balance and weight do to your arms.
how the gravity affects your movements.
how your breath affects your movements
and how chest and spine movements affect the rest of the body.
You should try to have a rounded and quite strict alignment when practicing form and drills. Try to not move an arm by itself, but let the movements of weight transmission and open/close movements (=of the chest) control your arm movement.
----

These are the main points. The full text can be read here:
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... enatal-qi/

[D_Glenn]

I thought you recommended the book because he mentions Daoist Jogging?
But that practice evolved into various Circle Walking practices because you could do it in a room without anyone being able to watch.
.

Jogging, sitting, walking, sleeping... yes. I don't remember any good names of them. And you can do this practice anywhere, with or without people watching. It's about something that goes into your daily life, a practice that is never forced but becomes second nature.

[Facepalm]

Have you even read the book that you are recommending people to buy?
Daoist Jogging has nothing to do with what we know as jogging, that's just how it's translated in the book. Da Liu's book uses it's own kind of romanization for Chinese so it's useless for finding the actual characters but "Walking with High strides", that he uses, is close, only you aren't really making high strides, ... anyway, it's not in the same category at all, it's in a category all by itself. It's a "deliberate meditation-exercise" and as I said it's what became Circle Walking. And the thing about people watching you, has nothing to do with where or when you practice, it was only that in the past if uninitiated people could watch you practice and then try to imitate the practice but without knowing the oral instructions it would be incorrect, that's why it was adapted it to a confined space and became Circle walking.

You should really do a **** ton of more research before you try to write as any sort of authority on these topics.



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[Bao]

Have you even read the book that you are recommending people to buy?
....
You should really do a **** ton of more research before you try to write as any sort of authority on these topics.

As I said, I might mix it up with other books. And no, I am not an authority on books and on how Da Liu writes. To be frank, I don't care very much about names , terminology and the intellectual stuff. Here, in this corner, it's all about practical practice, how to really practice what's in the theory. And this is something the "authorities" on names and terminology almost never speak about, i.e. practical practice. A little bit odd when I think about it, when you read pages and pages on terminology and semantics, and hardly never ever see anything close to a practical advice. All too common in the world of IMA.

[wayne hansen]

Da liu has about 5 books
In one he does a whole set of sitting ba tuan chin with all the basic Taoist internal exercises
I had already learnt all the exercises in his book when I first read it
So I may have read between the lines but he is a good author and his books were real gems back in the 70's

[D_Glenn]

Have you even read the book that you are recommending people to buy?
....
You should really do a **** ton of more research before you try to write as any sort of authority on these topics.

As I said, I might mix it up with other books. And no, I am not an authority on books and on how Da Liu writes. To be frank, I don't care very much about names , terminology and the intellectual stuff. Here, in this corner, it's all about practical practice, how to really practice what's in the theory. And this is something the "authorities" on names and terminology almost never speak about, i.e. practical practice. A little bit odd when I think about it, when you read pages and pages on terminology and semantics, and hardly never ever see anything close to a practical advice. All too common in the world of IMA.

So, when someone asks you:

Neidan practice is mostly about movement. Sitting meditation came later...

Bao,

I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts on this, if you have time.

Best,

There's a lot about this. No, no time for the moment, I'll have to think about this.

But if you are interested, you could pick up Liu Da's book on Chinese Health practice, "Taoist Health Exercise Book". There's some interesting and very basic nei dan practice here that could interest you.

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Health-Exe ... 042&sr=1-5

I've owned a copy of the book for many years, and I didn't remember reading anything about "Sitting Meditation came later", so I grabbed it off my bookshelf and started reading through it again. If anything the book is more than 50% about Daoist sitting meditation.

So why would that be a good book for someone to buy to get the answer to the original question? It is not.

Well, maybe you were just talking about the Moving meditation/ neidan part, which I agree is a key part of the argument and counterpoint to Mix's viewpoint, (which I also don't agree with btw). So the 2-3 pages in the book about this topic isn't really worth the money IMHO. (I could transcribe the whole 3-4 short paragraphs right here if people want?)

***
So "Practical Practice", I've been doing "Daoist Jogging" aka Xiang Jiao aka Circle walking aka Zou Zhuan aka Zhuan Zhang (Turning Palms) on a nearly daily basis since 1996. So I do know a few things about it. I've given a lot of practical advice to people in PMs over the years but it's not really practical until someone has put in the time. It's a long arduous time where you are just trudging up hill and all you can see is the face of the mountain in front of you- the roots, shrubbery, dirt, and rocks on the ground in front of you and the only thing you think about is where you can safely place each foot step. It's only when you reach the top and are coming back down the other side that you can look out and see the world and what you are seeking to find and the written texts and terminology make sense; you can then look at the map you're holding in your hand and actually see the signposts in the distance and have an idea of where the path is leading to.

So in the beginning the only pertinent, practical advice is just "Zhuan, Zhuan, Zhuan,..." (Turn, turn, turn,..).

But I've translated and written way more about what's on the other side of the mountain, then I probably should have.

But the fact that you don't see it's value and that it is about how to practice, speaks volumes.


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[Deadmonki]

Apologies, hadn't seen the thread growth.

Bao, thanks for the further elucidations on what you are referring to. I appreciate it, it helps to have a clearer idea of where you are coming from.

There are as many interpretations of "Daoism" and "Daoist practice" these days as there are, well everything else. When someone expresses a view that is rarer but similar to my own I get curious. In general I agree about the relationship of neidan and meditation, though I don't know if our specific views would match up.

For the record, although several of my posts on this forum have been in regards to BKF, it is not his Daoism that I follow or practice, although I benefitted from learning his neigong.

D-Glenn, I have a couple of Da Liu's books, and I'm aware of where he grabbed a lot of the Daoist info for them. I also found the recommendation odd given what Da Liu writes about overall and the original comment I'd asked about, but sometimes you never know. Thanks for letting me know more about the content of that particular book.

Best,

[Bob]

I dangerously tread here but here is a post on Harold Roth's Neiyi (Brian Kennedy's posts?):

http://thedaobums.com/topic/4753-harold ... -to-start/

Posted 04 February 2008 - 01:10 AM

I do not see this book talked about much, which is too bad because it is in my view the first book anyone interested in Daoist practical arts (be it qi gong, martial arts, calligraphy, Daoist dietary practices) ought to read.

I am talking about Harold Roth�s book titled Original Tao. It is a translation of the Nei Yeh, Inner Training. It has a skillfully done translation with the Chinese characters and a lot of extra and very useful background material. My wife and I have both looked at the translation and it is first rate.

It is the oldest surviving Daoist text that discusses in somewhat specific detail Daoist personal practices. And when I say �oldest� I mean oldest with a verifiable history. The text is not particularly long, if I remember right it is about as long as the Daode Jing. One of the central concepts of the Nei Yeh/Inner Training is the concept of �zheng� (正) which Roth generally translates as �aligned� or �alignment�.

The book covers seated meditation, diet, metaphysics and the relationship between qi and ching. Let me be quick to add it is not a DIY book, it can better be viewed as a kind of Daode Jing for personal health. Nonetheless I would recommend this book as the first book to buy�but I know it is kind of pricey. I think it is only available as a Columbia University hardback which means it will reduce your wallet.

To get a feel for Harold Roths approach to things, I am pretty sure he has some of his papers for free on the internet. For folks interested in the Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) he has done some of the best work available in english on that book.

http://www.holosforum.org/halroth.html

Early Taoist Contemplation and Its Resonance in the American Academy
An Interview with Harold Roth

[D_Glenn]

I've been reading through my copy for the last few weeks, trying to see if there's any hints but it hints to both daoyin and sitting practices so it's like what came first- the chicken or the egg?

But there's no clear answer. Sitting and Forgetting doesn't show up until later.

The key word is to 守一 'Shouyi' (守 'Shou' (to keep watch; to abide by [the rules of your body]; to observe [rules]; to guard) the One).

And do it everyday because a polished or lacquered /reflective surface always shows the dust that naturally gathers everyday. (Non-reflective surfaces or objects don't need dusted on a daily basis.) So clean out your mind/ dust off the JingShen (body and soul), via cultivation, that comes about from 守一 'Shouyi'.

The teachings of Zhang Boduan and the Li Trigram school of Daoism really focus on just the simple practices and go back to the Neiye.


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[Wuyizidi]

Whether we're talking about philosophy, neigong, or martial art, the basic idea should be the same: in Daoism it is believed the experience of living in this imperfect, impure, unjust world does injury to our body and mind, that it degrades what was originally pure, good, and robust. So the basic goal of practice is to return to that original state.

The term xian tian and hou tian are used to describe these states. They're often translated as Pre-natal/pre-birth/pre-heaven and Post-natal/post-birth/post-heaven. Right away these terminologies create confusions/misunderstandings. Because if taken literally, it gives the impression that the goal of practice is this:

Xian Tian <-------------------------------- Hou Tian

Obviously no matter what we do, we can't go back in time to a previous stage in our lifecycle. So in Daoism when people say return to Xian Tian, they really mean this:



We seek to recover the basic abilities/nature that has been degraded and lost (flexibility, strength, childlike curiosity, goodness...), and we develop them in this upward spiral pattern.

For example in Yin Style Bagua, we start our study with the first palm change - Pure Yang, then Pure Yin, then 61 combinations of that... By the time we reach 64, we start over again with the first palm change. This does not mean we just repeat what we did years ago as a beginner. Rather, we incorporate everything we learned to reexamine the first palm, and add additional content to the practice of that palm change.

In Taiji form practice: beginners start level 1 of practice with trying to get the movements (position of hand, foot, body...) correct first. Then next level is three external integration, and after that 3 internal integration, adding more and more yin yang circles... We are not mechanically repeating the same practice over and over again, we are constantly elevating. We can't go back in time, it's not so much return as reacquire, having the best of both worlds - all the good qualities we were born with, tempered with judgement and knowledge that came with experience.