OBAMA WINS!

[Chanchu]

“Why get defensive?” Seem to me you were the one being defensive
Walter and your posts were condescending and elitist Why are you hyper sensitive to any perceived criticism of Obama?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_o ... _v._Heller

Hear is a case that seem to rule against Obama's voting record on firearms. I hope he does not but i think he will enact many inane firearms laws. We will see.

Waco was a grandstand event staged by the ATF that went very wrong. All they had to do was snatch Koresh when he went into town. Or ask the local cops to bring him in. If I remember correctly they offered to do so. The record is very clear. A big mistake by LE that resulted in many deaths.

No honeymoon from me for any politicals left or right.

[C-Hopkins]

"Elitist"

Now there's an interesting word.

Walter doesn't think he's better than anybody.

"Elitist" is the neo con word for "smarter than us but we're gonna make them out to be wrong for it".

Education is a good thing.

[Michael]

I am not as sure about anything as much as you are sure about everything. So, there's not really a point.
Okay, Koresh and Jim Jones were fine fellows.

Take a deep breath there, Steve. You misinterpreted an important thing I said earlier. When I said "Based on the information I have," I was giving a disclaimer to say my opinions are based on my POV. Others may see it differently, but you said you watched it on TV and you've looked at the wiki (standard smear job) and I have seen more information than that. What was on TV was MSM controlled by federal agents who were trying to cover the murder of those people and it was almost entirely disinfo meant to demonize the Branch Davidians. The reason there was a FLIR plane filming the FBI gunning down people running out of a burning building is that during the 51 day standoff, the ATF/FBI said that the Davidians were meth dealers and were cooking it "right now", and they said FLIR footage showed a 400 degree stove that "could only be used to cook meth." Does this make any sense? No, and absolutely no evidence of a meth lab was found because it was a lie meant to defame the Davidians. There were hours of press conferences daily filled with those lies and I watched most of it at the time it was being aired. Maybe because I'm from Dallas it hit close to home.

There is no comparison between Jones and Koresh when you get beyond the surface, and as I said, it really confuses the conversation to bring Jim Jones into it. The way Koresh was smeared by the media and the way the Guayana massacre was reported makes these two events look similar, but it's an illusion. The Sheriff of McClellan County, Texas and many neighbors of Koresh did describe him as a fine fellow and I'm not going to get drawn into an argument about him because it's not relevant. The Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had a warrant for sexual abuse, which is not a federal crime, so all the talk about that is defamatory and irrelevant to what happened. But if you're interested in the facts, those allegations of sexual abuse were investigated by the proper authorities four times and no evidence was ever found to support that. Whenever you see something about the BATF and sexual abuse, you know it's BS because the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction over that or allegations of drug making and trafficking, which is one of the big clues that the whole thing was a setup.

[TaoJoannes]

The Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms had a warrant for sexual abuse, which is not a federal crime, so all the talk about that is defamatory and irrelevant to what happened.

the abuse charges may be simple defamation, but the warrant was for the stockpiles of illegal weapons they thought were on the compound. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fall/waco1.html

And, of course, the seige was the result of the firefight that erupted (causing the death of 4 federal agents and 7 cult members) when they tried to execute the search.

So spin it how you like, but the Davidians brought it on themselves by opening fire on authorities and refusing to submit to the search.

[Michael]

No, that wasn't the original warrant. The original warrant was for sexual abuse, nothing about guns as they had no evidence.

Waco: Rules of Engagement on google vid

Part 1

Part 2

[TaoJoannes]

Well, it was signed and sworn on the 25 Feb, 1993, (three days before the initial fire fight) and it includes fifteen pages of information detailing their suspicions based on packages arriving at the compound as early as may 1992.

Which included statements to the effect that there were .52 caliber guns in the compound, and Mr Koresh's instructions to an undercover agent on how to obtain illegal weapons configurations.

Can you provide the affidavit for the alleged sexual abuse warrant?

I mean, a simple document, not a conflagration of threatening music, vague accusations, and rhetorical gymnastics?

Because I really don't have 66 minutes for a crappy conspiracy film.

[Michael]

66 minutes for one part and 69 minutes for the other. Very good film so if you want to get a bigger picture, take a look at it.

The search warrant issue was one of the things that would change daily or hourly in the press conferences at the time of the attack back in '93.

We have just about derailed this thread, so I think we should make a Waco thread for any further discussion on this topic.

[Steve James]

There is no comparison between Jones and Koresh when you get beyond the surface, and as I said, it really confuses the conversation to bring Jim Jones into it

Well, the general topic is guns and gun control. Koresh was a religious cult leader (yep, "cult"): Jones was a religious cult leader. Koresh had guns, under his first amendment rights: Jones had guns too. Both wanted them for self-defense. Both felt threatened by the Federal gov't and used their guns. My point was that the ATF/FBI actions were a fuck up and not a conspiracy to get David Koresh --the gun dealer.

It's impossible to rationally argue about this, however, if you'll only accept your information as valid. You call things like the wiki article "smears", yet the whole point of this discussion is to smear Obama as anti-gun/Constitution. Frankly, I think your defense of Koresh is scary. It seems that you don't hold your opinion of the incident because you agree with what Koresh's religious views or what he is reported to have done; you take his side because you agree with his position on guns and your position on the government.

Sorry, I won't feel pity for Koresh because of his gun hobby. I do feel sorry for the people who were burned in the building and or shot outside, including the state and federal officers. Besides, you offered Koresh an example of the 2nd amendment being used. I think it's a terrible example. It wasn't a success; it was a suicide. So, I wouldn't argue for it on those grounds. It seems like your argument is "Get a gun to protect yourself from the gov't" ... Then wait for them to wipe you out. If the 2nd Amendment was meant to ensure that the people could fight the gov't, then it doesn't work. You could argue that it has been used, but it hasn't stopped the steady erosion of other Constitutional rights by the very people who stress the 2nd Amendment.

Ooops, of course, those are the guys in power; not the ones who will be in 2 months. And, fwiw, almost all the successful revolutions since the American Revolution have been guerrilla operations. I.e., just like Uncle Ho, you just let the federal gov't supply the weapons you need. It's much more efficient, unless there are more "gov't" than people.

My perspective on this is directly related to my understanding of US history and how the ideas of "principle" have been subverted to allow for atrocities. People fought for the "principle" that allowed them to own, rape and occasionally murder another group of people. So, in general, I'm always more interested in looking at the "spirit" of the law/amendment, rather than merely its "letter." It's like driving along and seeing someone lying in your path. You'd be wrong to drive over the guy and say "I had the light. So, I was right." However, there are plenty of people who use that excuse. "He should have been watching where he was lying."

The connection is that, like Obama, I believe in common sense and people more than I do about an abstract principle. If, iow, if stronger gun legislations work in a particular place (like a city), and those laws reduce the number of victime, then I'm not going to fight against it on the grounds that it violates the 2nd Amendment.

[Michael]

We're coming at this from different angles because I don't believe 40 BATF agents with machine guns riding in cattle cars and three helicopters with agents firing machine guns, all storming a house of 100 people, is an honest mistake.

"Smear" Obama? No way, man, just presenting the facts. It's a fact he's in favor or banning .223 and .308 calibre ammo. There's another thread about that, too as far as who he's appointing.

[TaoJoannes]

66 minutes for one part and 69 minutes for the other. Very good film so if you want to get a bigger picture, take a look at it.

It seems to cause tunnel vision, though.

I do like those videos though, reminds me of the time I convinced my little sister that we had different fathers through a series of carefully constructed statements that relied on subtly misleading presentation and baseless conclusions.

The search warrant issue was one of the things that would change daily or hourly in the press conferences at the time of the attack back in '93.

It's a good thing they keep those affidavits on file, then, isn't it? Of course, the lizards probably switched out the documents.

We have just about derailed this thread, so I think we should make a Waco thread for any further discussion on this topic.

Run away, run away!

The GOV was bad, there, they fucked up, which is far easier for me to believe than any sort of conspiracy. Sure, there may be some attempt to cover up how collosally bad they fucked up, but in the end, error and ambition are much more likely.

The government believed Koresh had a stockpile of illegal weapons on the compound, and when the government came to investigate, the cult decided to use them.

I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable with megalomaniacs running around with .52 calibre weapons in my neighborhood. Call me crazy.

But I actually don't care about the issue enough to put any more effort into it. You are right that it detracts from the thread, and that it's been going on for far too long, though. I'll give you that.

OBAMA!!!!!!

[Steve James]

We're coming at this from different angles because I don't believe 40 BATF agents with machine guns riding in cattle cars and three helicopters with agents firing machine guns, all storming a house of 100 people, is an honest mistake.

Why rephrase my words "fuck up" with "honest mistake"? You wouldn't be trying to trivialize the point? I wasn't saying anything was fair, was I. In fact, I was saying that, in fact, the 2nd Amendment didn't do David Koresh or his followers a damn bit of good. They're dead: that's the fact. Your point was ....

"Smear" Obama? No way, man, just presenting the facts.

Oh please, you're saying you don't like Obama's view on ammo. In fact, you have claimed that it indicates his intention to ban all long bore weapons. You brought up Koresh to support you views on gun control --because I asked for an example where the 2nd Amendment had worked in the way that you suggest it was intended. My response to that was that those times when civilians came out on top they were arrested. Some, like Randy Weaver, who is a much better example than Koresh, imo, are later vindicated.

[Dmitri]

Here's an on-topic post, for a change. (Pun semi-intended.)


http://images.google.com/images?q=lord%20obama

[C-Hopkins]

Jeez man, you haters.

Why is it that you'll say anything you can to try to tear Obama down before he even steps in office?

He is a constitutional scholar (as Joyce pointed out) and he understands the right to bear arms better than any of you.


You have nothing concrete to work with so you have to concoct shit (what else is new re: Obama).

Stop hating from the sidelines. Throwing shit from inside cages is reserved for zoo animals.

[Walter Joyce]

Characteristics of the "elite"

Attributes that identify an elite vary; personal achievement may not be essential. As a term "Elite" usually describes a person or group of people who are members of the uppermost class of society. Personal attributes commonly purported by elitist theorists to be characteristic of the elite include:

* Rigorous study of, or great accomplishment within, a particular field.
* A long track record of competence in a demanding field
* An extensive history of dedication and effort in service to a specific discipline (e.g., medicine or law)
* A high degree of accomplishment, training or wisdom within a given field


Some synonyms for elite might be "Upper-class," or "Aristocratic," indicating that the individual in question has a relatively large degree of control over a society's means of production.

[edit] Anti-elitism

Main articles: Populism and Pluralism (political theory)

[edit] Elitism as a pejorative term

The term "elitism" or the title "elitist" can be used resentfully [1] by a person who is not a member of an elite, or is a member but resents the elite position or uses it in a condescending or cynical manner in order to ridicule or criticize practices which discriminate on the basis of ability or attributes. Often, such as in politics, it is used to describe persons as out of touch with the Average Joe. The implication is that the "elitist" person or group thinks they are better than everyone else, and therefore put themselves before others. It could be seen as a synonym for snob. An elitist is not always seen as truly elite, but only privileged. This use is often employed in politics in societies where social equality is valued and the middle and lower classes have political power.

[Dmitri]

Stop hating from the sidelines. Throwing shit from inside cages is reserved for zoo animals.

"from inside cages" is right...

What does "sidelines" mean here anyway?

Anyway, I was just poking fun, but I guess I neglected just how much some of you guys love the man, so I will herewith stop the casual hatin' such as above. Even though I don't usually do these sorts of posts, kind'a like what steelincotton was doing against McCain. I do however reserve the right to express my views about this guy even if they are "negative", such as on this thread.

Characteristics of the "elite"

Fair enough... thanks. I guess what happened to this term is similar to what happened to terms like "liberal", where it became pretty much a curse word...