Naders' letter to Obama (new)

[Steve James]

Well, it would be more reasonable to total up the spending of all the candidates from the campaign on. But, no, he wouldn't have won if he couldn't have raised money. Each election, the spending has gone up. There have been complaints about this since the 60s. Nader and "realpolitik" ... I dunno. What is his position on international relations? How exactly would he rearrange the economy? What is his position on social issues? If he says the right things, he'll get the support.

[Steve James]

I don't equate Uncle Tom with calling someone the N word, which is simply a huge insult.

Nader has no place to call him an Uncle Tom because it only refers to black people. I'll bet you've never thought of calling a white person an Uncle Tom, except if his name is really Thomas. Now, I've no idea if Nader is a bigot, but it would be like me asking whether McCain would behave more like a "hillbilly or a civilized person." (This reminds me of the Plessy decision. The Court opinion argued that accomodations (for blacks) are inferior only if they take them to be so.) Hillbilly, after all, just refers to a person who lives in the hills, riight? (Not the Malibu Hills, though).

Fwiw, nothing Nader said offended me. But, that's because I really don't give a shit about things like that. As I've said, many times before, remarks like that are about the person who makes them, not the person they're directed at.

[C-Hopkins]

Nader is angry.


Obama's election is forcing a lot of people to face their shit I guess .

ItLs like that for everybody though when something totaaly and completely new happens.

People will rail against it because its so foreign to them. It doesn't feel good, its too different.

The grey matter in peoples brains is gonna have to re form for this one.

[Michael]

My understanding of Uncle Tom is basically calling someone a traitor to their tribe, so I think it could easily be used on a white person although I've never called someone that and probably never will because it might be misunderstood. I'd just call them a traitor straight out like I have Bush, Pelosi, and others. Anyway, Obama is not black and I don't even think he's an American citizen since he refuses to provide his birth certificate, so maybe even the word traitor doesn't apply to him. I'd just call him a Wall Street schill for taking all that money and then breaking his promises on FISA and then voting yes on the Banker Payoff bill.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Don't write byte me Michael. Everything, the whole thing, has to be taken in context. I think that most everybody has a grasp of politic. You are either very good at it, or you are not and even when you are very good at it, you get beaten now and then. that is the reality of most things. Nader, is demonstrably not good at politics and if he was, he would have been a serious contender. But he hasn't been and won't be. While we may each share his sentiments and regards to the world we live in, politically speaking, he doesn't appear to understand how to function in a world where you must deal and flow, compromise and command. In my opinion, if anything, he comes off as a dictatorial intellectual, and although he may be correct, he is not appealing to align with.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Nader is angry.


Obama's election is forcing a lot of people to face their shit I guess .

ItLs like that for everybody though when something totaaly and completely new happens.

People will rail against it because its so foreign to them. It doesn't feel good, its too different.

The grey matter in peoples brains is gonna have to re form for this one.

An astute observation in my opinion.

Also worthy of note is that many people carry feeling s of distrust towards those who are not like themselves.
So you can start to imagine how a person of a so called minority race has perhaps felt for as long as America has existed.

This election is a demonstration that most of America, at least the most part that got out and voted, have moved on from that primitive and tribal thinking pattern
that has be ingrained in all peoples for all written history. All history is one people conquering or being defeated by another people.
Nowadays it has morphed from peoples to religions and nations. But the undertones are the same.

to move beyond it is amazing. It shows True evolution of will in the nation.

So, even if that is the only change, and Obama merely is just another pocket lining liar, so be it.
That change in the people alone is momentous in the big picture of humanity and carries value into the future
that is of a currency that can never fail.

[Michael]

You guys are dismissing Nader's specific criticisms of Obama.

[kreese]

And what has Nader said about McCain? I doubt it's all positive. How about the McCain supporters stop acting like pissed off adolescents and move on?

[Michael]

Why not focus on Nader's letter? Why focus on Nader as a politician when he's never held office? You say he's not good at it and it's a moot point, but I disagree that his campaigns have not achieved a damn thing. He was touring the USA in 2000 and filling stadiums on a shoe string budget and zero press from the MSM, which inspired a lot of people. Whether or not Nader is a contender has nothing to do with the letter that Bill posted.

[C-Hopkins]

Nader is dismissing Obama's explanations of himself. So have alot of others this whole election by the way.

[Steve James]

My understanding of Uncle Tom is basically calling someone a traitor to their tribe, so I think it could easily be used on a white person

Mike, it's easy enough to find out the origin and historic uses of "Uncle Tom." It means --since Harriet Beecher Stowe-- a black man who kowtows to white people, even at the expense of other black people. Yeah, traitor, as in the slave who alerts the master of the rebellion.
Sure, there are other names for traitor. Nader would have been better to call him a Quisling. But, if you asked me, it was an ignorant remark directed at a black person. Now, if you want to argue that people should start using Uncle Tom as a synonym for traitor, ok. But, unless they know the origins and references of the term, and use it on others like themselves, they are going to get into unnecessary trouble. Either they'll be thought of as dumb or that their bigotry is peeking through.

For ex., I would never ever try to make an argument using the word "cracker" --even though it might be a joke, or a firework. I know that some people might take it personally, and that might ruin the entire argument. Nobody would keep listening. Nader either knew what he was saying, or should have? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

The letter? really? Because it's a j'accusé letter with a bunch of cheap shots and no substance.
Is ralph nader an avid supporter of Islam?
Were he running, would he be out visiting mosques? How does he feel about israel?
Why would he presume that because Obama's father, who he(Obama) hardly even knew, was a muslim
that Obama should uphold his religious faith and views? What is Raplh really poking at but his own nerves?

Reading between the lines of that letter isn't even neccesary,
His very premise is accusatory and based on assumptions and really apparent bias towards Obama on a personal level.

why shouldn't America support Israel and not get involved outside of consulting on the Palestinian situation?
why doesn't Syria or Jordan or Egypt help? Why isn't Ralph Nader over there in Gaza ensuring that the Palestinians get
their free palestinian state same as any US president has wanted for years but it's just not that simple is it?

I mean, I'm pretty sure we're reading the same letter right?

[Walter Joyce]

You guys are dismissing Nader's specific criticisms of Obama.

And you dismiss reality the way you go on about the birth certificate.

Do you honestly believe that if a legitimate case could be made against the president elect's status as a US citizen based on where he was born it wouldn't have been made by his political opponents? Please. that dog just won't hunt. If Obama could have LEGITIMATELY been knocked out of the race based on the citizenship requirement it would have happened a long time ago.

Every judge confronted with a lawsuit based on that claim dismissed the case.

Which begs the question.


Is there a massive conspiracy in the judiciary to hide the fact that Obama is not a US citizen?

Or are those who make such claims just plain old nuts?

Nader is a washed up has been ego maniac who has lost all political credibility.

You make Oliver stone look like Oliver Wendell Holmes when it comes to conspiracy theories.

Give it a rest, put down the koolade and take a deep breath.

The false logic of your arguments don't hold up to a cursory common sense analysis.

[RobP]

Nader is angry.


Obama's election is forcing a lot of people to face their shit I guess .
ItLs like that for everybody though when something totaaly and completely new happens.

But I don't know that it is totally new - like some have said here, he's just another corporate politician. And thinking he will somehow be "cool and groovy" cos of his skin colour is not far off thinking he will be "bad and dangerous" cos of his skin colour (sorry, color )

Call me cynical, but I think this is just cosmetic...same old same old

cheers

Rob

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I don't think he's cool or groovy and frankly, I'm gonna wait the 100 days before I decide whether or not Obama is filling those commitments he has made.
Should he do that, then he can be cool and groovy.