Why all the talk about Drugs?

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Re: Why all the talk about Drugs?

Postby edededed on Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:08 pm

Right, drunkenness has in general been looked down upon by most cultures around the world, and so is the more inherently "wrong" part, not necessarily the drinking part it self. However, obviously, drunkenness is a result of drinking alcohol - and drinking alcohol also inherently causes those who enjoy it to want it more (due to its addictive properties), making it something of a trap. So, since excess seems a natural result of its enjoyment - how to avoid drunkenness then? I think that the different is in levels of self-discipline - "I won't drink more than one glass tonight" vs. "I won't drink at all." Not enjoying alcohol from the start is the easiest way to avoid drunkenness - if you already deeply enjoy drinking, it will be hard to decide to completely abstain forever, on the other hand.

Increasing the potency of the drug makes for a good comparison - is enjoying crack wrong? Or just stupid? Or is only the getting high part wrong?

Buddhism ranges from strict to almost "not Buddhist" - mostly dependent on how far the sect is from the place of origin (India). Japanese Buddhists are the most relaxed - I would actually argue that most Japanese Buddhists are hardly Buddhist at all - at least, the lay practitioners have no idea about the five precepts, the eightfold path, or anything, really, except for a vague idea of an afterlife of some sort. The monks eat meat, drink liquor, and have children - whom they pass their temples to for the next generation. Many of them do not shave their heads, either - so they just look like guys in kimonos. It's a shame, really - since Buddhism has quite a good framework for teaching ethics, I think. There are sutras, but since they are written in archaic language and pronunciation, noone really can read them, except for monks or scholars.

But anyway, I'm not saying that alcohol should be prohibited - I'm mainly against the extremely positive way that alcohol is looked at. I would love to see alcohol follow the same road that tobacco did - tobacco is not illegal now, but public perception of it has declined, for the better.

Incidentally, drunkenness seems to lead to different outcomes in different cultures. For example, drunken violence seems to be a mundane occurrence in places like the US or the UK; but in Japan, it is almost unheard of. Since in Japan there is also a lot less driving, drunken driving is also less of a problem (although it does happen). The main result of drunkenness is idiotic behavior and having to stand/sit next to malodorous drunkards in the train; also, barfing. When I used to live in a particular part of Tokyo, every morning, in the same place on the train platform - there was always a pile of vomit, the same color (don't ask), the same spot. Probably from the same guy, I suspect.
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Re: Why all the talk about Drugs?

Postby Steve James on Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:05 am

However, obviously, drunkenness is a result of drinking alcohol - and drinking alcohol also inherently causes those who enjoy it to want it more (due to its addictive properties), making it something of a trap.


Well, I have a beer every day, but I haven't been drunk since 1971. I don't think drunkenness is a necessary result of drinking alcohol.

Afa Buddhism, there have been differences of thought on what "intoxication" means. Generally, especially in the Tibetan tradition, having a drink is not the same as being intoxicated. And, in practical terms, the difference is clear from the result. Some people can't drink because they have addictive personalities and simply can't restrict their drinking. The disease of mind caused by intoxication is what the fifth precept warns a Buddhist to avoid. But, intoxication literally means "poisoning" and it applies to others as well as oneself. I.e., one can intoxicate people with words. I would say that some Buddhist theorists would say that not poisoning oneself or others fine but that telling or preventing others from poisoning themselves is violence. I don't think there are any laws in Tibetan Buddhist countries against or prohibiting the consumption of alcohol.

Alcohol consumption is a YMMV activity with YMMV results. The reasons are varied and differ from culture to culture. Okay, perhaps Japanese drunks aren't as rowdy as US drunks, who may be less rowdy than their UK, German or Russian cousins.
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Re: Why all the talk about Drugs?

Postby edededed on Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:49 pm

Of course, drinking alcohol does not always lead to drunkenness - but drunkenness is always a result of drinking alcohol ("all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares"). Certainly, it would be good enough if people saw drunkenness as a vice, and actively tried to avoid it - instead of not seeing it as a problem, and even glorifying it ("Last weekend, I was SO drunk that..."). (I can't tell you how many times I have had to sit in a late night drinking party with a Japanese boss who was relating his umpteenth tale about how drunk he was that he had to forcibly regurgitate in order to live/fell unconscious/totally lost his memory and woke up somewhere else/etc.) Some countries (in East Asia, etc.) have pervasive drinking cultures where the pressure to drink is strong, whether with friends or doing business - despite the fact that some people are physiologically more sensitive to health problems arising from alcohol (some even die from it). In China's case, drinking has been glorified for a long time - by illustrious cultural poets like Li Bai, etc. (but apparently Li Bai was not physically particularly sensitive to alcohol).

I can't read Sanskrit, but in Chinese, the fifth precept is literally "not drink alcohol." But yeah, it's more a voluntary thing (well, unless you are a monk or nun).

Due to the different results of rowdiness resulting from drunkenness in the West vs. Japan (for example), I wonder how much of the rowdiness is voluntary and how much is drink? Doesn't it seem weird that Westerners often fight when drunk, but in Japan that hardly ever happens? I think that, often, drunkenness is almost like a "license to be crazy" and that lets people do what they really want to do. In Japan, that does not really lead to fighting, but it might lead to lechery.
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Re: Why all the talk about Drugs?

Postby Michael on Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:14 am

edededed wrote:In Japan, that does not really lead to fighting, but it might lead to lechery.

And karaoke!
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Re: Why all the talk about Drugs?

Postby edededed on Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:47 am

Karaoke is normally the end result (that is the second or third drinking party). Also interesting is that guys who totally refuse to sing (due to being embarassed) still refuse to sing after becoming drunk - but perhaps for the better.
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