BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:43 pm

windwalker wrote:
why not cut the BS really.

Its not part of what the gov is promoting nor what many of the people there would agree with.
start by who put up the sign, or why.


Not the government perhaps, but some political groups certainly are

windwalker wrote:
of course there might be a little more to it.....

Plans to allow a London council to build homes in Peterborough for its tenants have been criticised by an MP as "social cleansing".
Peterborough City Council leader Marco Cereste has been in talks with Kensington and Chelsea about working together to build houses for people in London and Peterborough.



Huntingdon is not in Peterborough - same county but some distance apart

As for the London "social cleansing" - this is a result of local councils selling of social housing in order to build "yuppie flats". So they are basically trying to ship out their social housing tenants to boroughs outside of London in order to attract in rich buyers. It is social cleansing and I have a friend who has been very active in local groups opposing this, particularly the one in Stratford, East London. At that particular place all members of the local communities came together to protest and fight back.
So I'm afraid this isn't an "immigrant" issue but a "poor people" one. It makes you wonder if anyone will be left in London to do the "poor people" jobs that are needed in order to keep the city running.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:54 pm

middleway wrote:
So now I am a lost cause for voting on my belief that Britain would be economically better off out of the eu?? And maybe you didn't call me a racist but look at the hate thrown towards the leave voters all over Facebook! Not exactly the moral high ground now is it??

But you did just Say my thoughts and feelings on this subject were intolerant and divisive?? How exactly? Unless you believe 'british' to mean 'white'. If that is the case there is truly no hope for you either.

But after all is said and done you seem to be very intolerant of those who disagree with you, even people who a week ago you got on with rather well.

But Fair enough dude. I am finished with this subject...


Problem is all this immigration issue nonsense has clouded more relevant and important reasons / arguments for voting out. Maybe that was a deliberate tactic in order to stir up so called "populist" sentiment. It has certainly polarised opinion, with some of the Brexit crowd now calling any and all Remainers "lefty luvvies". They are obviously unaware that Tony Benn was always anti-EU and Dennis Skinner and others were firmly in the Brexit camp.

So I think for some this vote has been less about the actual issues surrounding the EU and more about some kind of football terrace view of Britain and politics (present UK company excepted!). It's a shame but in a world where the media thrives on polarisation and twitter sound bites not surprising I suppose
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:04 pm

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https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/po ... .iqZ798PoL

Well, we (in the States) don't have "the same" problem. In fact, people came here to escape European problems. It's why the US didn't intervene in WW2 because Nazis were killing Germans (Jews and others) and demanding that other European countries get rid of their Jews.

Sounds quite hyperbolic, but the whole point of international cooperation was to avoid international conflict. However, as I've said, nationalist politics is almost always cannibalistic. The reason is simple. It's easy to identify an enemy, but when that enemy is a neighbor, and that neighbor has friends, it is inevitable that whatever is planned for the enemy will extend to his friends. So, when there's a law against people X, all those who aid them are criminals. All those who do not actively engage in rooting them out are considered enemies.

Anyway, that's why it's not the simple black or brown v white issue, and it's not even religious. Afa reasons other than economic (which no one can predict, but for which no one planned, either), having lived in Europe I can certainly understand why people in England don't want Germans and Dutch telling them that their crumpets were not up to snuff, or deciding how many immigrants they should or shouldn't take, or how the military should be deployed. However, I'm not sure that such issues couldn't have been worked out within the EU. Actually, I'm not sure that it won't be.

Rumors are that there's a petition for another referendum. I dunno if that would solve any problems. Otoh, I think referendums to change policies that will affect everyone should require a 2/3rd or 3/4 majority. When the results are 51/49, the victory is hollow. That's jmo.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:59 am

Rumors are that there's a petition for another referendum. I dunno if that would solve any problems. Otoh, I think referendums to change policies that will affect everyone should require a 2/3rd or 3/4 majority. When the results are 51/49, the victory is hollow. That's jmo.


Well it turns out the petition is fueled by bots and it is a complete nightmare to get any real figures on the numbers. But more importantly I Honestly wonder what those campaigning for the referendum to be overturned or another referendum are thinking will happen to the already divided country? It should be a real consideration and I would love to hear their honest thoughts on this. The answer simply cant be 'I don't care, i want my old country back' ... because that is now not an option.

I find this quite interesting, especially on Scotland.

https://www.facebook.com/AthensLiveGr/videos/1723377684600928/

As for the hate spreading by racist assholes, They were there before the referendum, they will always be there ... Just as Islam has its ISIS or the USA has its KKK ... we too have our groups of complete assholes. Their voice shouldn't be given air time in my opinion.

Thanks
Last edited by middleway on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:03 am

So I think for some this vote has been less about the actual issues surrounding the EU and more about some kind of football terrace view of Britain and politics (present UK company excepted!). It's a shame but in a world where the media thrives on polarisation and twitter sound bites not surprising I suppose


Agreed mate.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:19 am

So far the comedians have spoken more truth than the politicians on Brexit. And yet again John Oliver is doing us proud:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo5OU0uVANc

Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:32 am

Oh, yeah, and, Fixed:

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Re: BREXIT

Postby johnbecker on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:09 am

I've a great fondness for Oliver Cromwell's speech to the 'Rump Parliament' dismissing it, but this other select quote seems particularly appropriate:

http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/exhibitions/Cr ... quote1.htm

"WEEDS AND NETTLES, BRIARS AND THORNS, HAVE THRIVEN UNDER YOUR SHADOW, DISSETTLEMENT AND DIVISION, DISCONTENTMENT AND DISSATISFACTION, TOGETHER WITH REAL DANGERS TO THE WHOLE."

Cromwell’s speech dissolving the 1st Protectoral Parliament.


What an almighty mess. Bravo Dave. It came to me when making a late lunch a new definition for the English language. In reference to adding a small piece of butter to some broccoli, I decided to christen it a 'Cameron of butter', i.e. a knob that melts away when exposed to excess heat. The Brits here will notice the knob/nob connection.

Victories won on the playing fields of Eton? Ha, I think Dave and George were too busy daisy chaining around the back of the bike sheds together.

Not happy with furthering divisions between England and Scotland by the Russian Roulette referendum held on Scottish Independence, we now have the nuclear conflagration of the 'in/out' Brexit debacle. Blunt ultimatums, where one side ultimately must be humiliated and left with bitter grievances, marvelous way to run a country, bloody marvelous.

Regardless of the arguments for and against, this now has left not only the UK bitterly divided, but also many within England. And all because the 'political establishment' was so smug in its assumptions that fear would win out. Talk about not paying attention. Look at Greece and Spain, with anti-austerity parties being voted in. Look at the rise of far right politics in Eastern Europe. Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders in the US. Voters are lashing out because they feel utterly ignored by the mainstream, self serving politicians, and it's hard to ignore what they are saying. The poor get screwed, the middle classes squeezed and the 1% are only getting richer.

So, bravo Dave, give people an ultimatum, a protest vote, and see how it goes. Call them racist, ignorant or whatever, but we are talking more than 17 million disillusioned people. People look for some kind of stability and security, and politicians promise them castles in the air that turn out to be poorly built castles of sand on the edge of the incoming tide. What do people do when they simply don't believe anything they are told any more? Job security, but the British government veto EU proposals to put higher tariffs on dumped Chinese steel. Lord Mandelson, good Labour peer that he is, while the EU Trade Commissioner, lobbies for Russian Aluminium tariffs to be cut (Russian based plants, but American owned) causing three plants to be closed in the UK, having a major impact on those Labour voting communities. It was reported in the media that Mandelson had personally met with the American owners of the Russian plants BEFORE then lobbying for the tariff removals. But hey, no worries, because Lord M and his former master Blair are now set up for life, so it ain't their problem any more.

People need leadership, and God forbid, some honest bloody facts, instead of the bullshit endless spin and empty promises. Leadership and not just to be taken for granted and used and abused.

The EU federalists will have to adjust or it will all ultimately fall apart. It is an economic and social Titanic heading towards its nemesis sooner rather than later. Too many are living the high life there, immune to the worries of the 'common people'. Jobs and pensions for life, and for the family as well, eh Lord Kinnock?

Aside from all that though, the politicians closer to home should all be taking a long hard look at themselves, as should all the people. Like it or not, we ARE all in this world together, and it's been a long time since there were any hiding places left. The greatest tragedy in all of this is the conflict now between fundamentally decent people who honestly believe in what they've chosen and have been pitted against each other by a damnable referendum.

I'll finish on a further quote by Cromwell from that speech to the Rump Parliament:

http://www.emersonkent.com/speeches/dis ... iament.htm

You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:13 am

windwalker wrote:
No, but if you search around Im sure you could find some


haha gotta love it.... ;)


Took me two minutes to find this

http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe

The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.

This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.

A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.

Immigration was exploited in the campaign with consummate cynicism, not only by populist politicians from the lunar right, but by Labour politicians drawing on their own venerable tradition of promoting and nurturing racism, a symptom of corruption not at the bottom but at the top. The reason millions of refugees have fled the Middle East - irst Iraq, now Syria - are the invasions and imperial mayhem of Britain, the United States, France, the European Union and Nato. Before that, there was the wilful destruction of Yugoslavia. Before that, there was the theft of Palestine and the imposition of Israel.

The pith helmets may have long gone, but the blood has never dried. A nineteenth century contempt for countries and peoples, depending on their degree of colonial usefulness, remains a centrepiece of modern "globalisation", with its perverse socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor: its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour; its perfidious politicians and politicised civil servants.

All this has now come home to Europe, enriching the likes of Tony Blair and impoverishing and disempowering millions. On 23 June, the British said no more.

The most effective propagandists of the "European ideal" have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even "cool". What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as "neoliberalism".

The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain's second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, "experiencing the effects of extreme poverty" and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.

Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about "leaving Europe", as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.

On the morning after the vote, a BBC radio reporter welcomed politicians to his studio as old chums. "Well," he said to "Lord" Peter Mandelson, the disgraced architect of Blairism, "why do these people want it so badly?" The "these people" are the majority of Britons.

The wealthy war criminal Tony Blair remains a hero of the Mandelson "European" class, though few will say so these days. The Guardian once described Blair as "mystical" and has been true to his "project" of rapacious war. The day after the vote, the columnist Martin Kettle offered a Brechtian solution to the misuse of democracy by the masses. "Now surely we can agree referendums are bad for Britain", said the headline over his full-page piece. The "we" was unexplained but understood - just as "these people" is understood. "The referendum has conferred less legitimacy on politics, not more," wrote Kettle. " ... the verdict on referendums should be a ruthless one. Never again."

The kind of ruthlessness Kettle longs for is found in Greece, a country now airbrushed. There, they had a referendum and the result was ignored. Like the Labour Party in Britain, the leaders of the Syriza government in Athens are the products of an affluent, highly privileged, educated middle class, groomed in the fakery and political treachery of post-modernism. The Greek people courageously used the referendum to demand their government sought "better terms" with a venal status quo in Brussels that was crushing the life out of their country. They were betrayed, as the British would have been betrayed.

On Friday, the Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was asked by the BBC if he would pay tribute to the departed Cameron, his comrade in the "remain" campaign. Corbyn fulsomely praised Cameron's "dignity" and noted his backing for gay marriage and his apology to the Irish families of the dead of Bloody Sunday. He said nothing about Cameron's divisiveness, his brutal austerity policies, his lies about "protecting" the Health Service. Neither did he remind people of the war mongering of the Cameron government: the dispatch of British special forces to Libya and British bomb aimers to Saudi Arabia and, above all, the beckoning of world war three.

In the week of the referendum vote, no British politician and, to my knowledge, no journalist referred to Vladimir Putin's speech in St. Petersburg commemorating the seventy-fifth anniversary of Nazi Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June, 1941. The Soviet victory - at a cost of 27 million Soviet lives and the majority of all German forces - won the Second World War.

Putin likened the current frenzied build up of Nato troops and war material on Russia's western borders to the Third Reich's Operation Barbarossa. Nato's exercises in Poland were the biggest since the Nazi invasion; Operation Anaconda had simulated an attack on Russia, presumably with nuclear weapons. On the eve of the referendum, the quisling secretary-general of Nato, Jens Stoltenberg, warned Britons they would be endangering "peace and security" if they voted to leave the EU. The millions who ignored him and Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama and the man who runs the Bank of England may, just may, have struck a blow for real peace and democracy in Europe.
Last edited by RobP3 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:32 am

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Re: BREXIT

Postby mrtoes on Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:14 am

Sterling is down to $1.32. For us that means travelling is 14% more expensive than a few days ago with the possibility of bigger drops. Domestic focused FTSE 250 is down 15%, global markets biggest drop since 2007 with 2$ trillion wiped off stocks worldwide.

Still, at least there's firm leadership with a plan in place to deal with this chaos - I expect everything will be sorted by tea-time!

And thanks Graham - that pretty much sums up my mood right now.

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Re: BREXIT

Postby yeniseri on Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:32 am

mrtoes wrote:Sterling is down to $1.32. For us that means travelling is 14% more expensive than a few days ago with the possibility of bigger drops. Domestic focused FTSE 250 is down 15%, global markets biggest drop since 2007 with 2$ trillion wiped off stocks worldwide.

Still, at least there's firm leadership with a plan in place to deal with this chaos - I expect everything will be sorted by tea-time!

Matthew


There are those who have planned for this and they will reap the rewards of a downturn of the local currency in the world marketplace.
If I bet the sterling will stay the same or increase then I will lose money. If I see trending that indicates the sterling will go down and I place my money and it happens, I come out ahead. ;D
Large scale institutions can do this and benefit and it is legal.

Bombay tea, if you please ;D
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:49 am

It's hard to predict currency, but it's clear that many peoples' plans for retirement may have to change.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:57 am

middleway wrote:
So I think for some this vote has been less about the actual issues surrounding the EU and more about some kind of football terrace view of Britain and politics (present UK company excepted!). It's a shame but in a world where the media thrives on polarisation and twitter sound bites not surprising I suppose


Agreed mate.


Well that vote could have gone either way on another day it probably would have. I think the odd thing is that I hear people discussing "freedom" yet it seems to me that dissolving borders and being able to live wherever you want without showing papers is the ultimate freedom.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:54 am

Rob,

I find it interesting that the Russians are left out of the blame for refugee crisis. Had they not backed Assad then that civil war would probably be over or resolved, for better or worse.

Anyway it's a pointless article which seems to blend a lot of unconnected topics. The U.S. or NATO in Poland has nothing to do with the EU. In fact we could argue that U.S. troops in Poland has more to do with the British (and French) doing nothing in 1939 when they were supposed to defend Poland by invading Germany, but it didn't happen

I also find it interesting that they left out that Soviets also carved out the Eastern half of Poland. Of course no mention of the Russian reaction when the Ukraine voted for their "independence."

The longer I read the more holes I found. The writer should have to kept it short so the bias was not so obvious, because it's clear that the writer is Pro-Putin and anti-EU (confusing EU with NATO which the UK is still in). The more I read the more I was convinced I was reading a post written for RSF, which I was. ;)
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:16 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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