BREXIT

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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP3 on Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:28 am

cloudz wrote:
Rob.. I'm not sure what the irony is there, I don't think this was about "those bloody immigrants" for many "leavers". It comes down to having at the very least a semblance and modicum of control of our borders. This is something that could well tear Europe down, a simplistic view of it, doesn't do anyone any favours I'm afraid.

Everyone loves to talk about influx, but no one mentions the places in Europe that it drains and shrinks (like Lithuania and it's towns/ cities) at the same time when people can just get up and go to wherever the goings better. Not saying that should be discouraged, but the way the EU is set up right now is just way below good or optimal for many involved IMHO.


True, the irony for me is just from seeing comments on some of the FB groups or from some of the more EDL types. It think there was simplistic hype on both sides, which was a shame as it obscured many deeper and more important issues. For example what happened to Greece was a big factor in my decision
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:38 am

Matthew i feel i must respond to your direct points to me even though i said i was done with all this discussion. Too much time has been wasted on it. however.

Fair question! I think that we've all realised that the country we lived in is not the place we thought it was - it's actually two countries with two very different visions - one looking backwards, one looking forwards. The part that is looking backwards is going to drag the part looking forwards into the swamp, and that makes us sad because it will cause us and people we care about pain.


I understand your feelings and respect them for what they represent to you personally.

I feel that the part of this country that is pro EU is the backwards looking part. It is a part that is happy for a group of unelected bureaucrats, with a preference for multinational business over the needs and requirements of the people they claim to govern. It is a part that screams intolerance when the idea of equalization of the worlds opportunity is presented. Instead prefering the stark focus on the 'European' as more important.

The exit of the EU is not the exit of europe, it is not the exit of Nato, it is not the exit of the UK from the value of freedom. It is the exit from an unelected political union that has failed its member states repeatedly, Greece, Spain, Ireland. The Euro, the EU, these are not success stories. Youth unemployment is Rife across europe largely because of the inability for the EU parliment to apply nuanced perspectives on individual, country specific situations. The EU has to paint all member states with the same brush and this impacts every country in a different way. You need only look at some of our industries to see this, others have benefited its true, but that doesn't mean those that have been decimated by Brussels policy can somehow buy their house back.

Mmm not a good example to draw.

Visa - So my girlfriend works in water management, but she's not an engineer which makes it hard to qualify for skilled visas. Let's look at the examples below:

Australia: Points system (would only make it with prior work offer - very difficult)
USA: H1 or L1 visa - not a chance! Very difficult even for me
Canada: Points system (would only make it with prior work offer - very difficult)
Japan: Category visa - None applies

Doesn't look so good does it? We'd better hope for a better deal than that. Fortunately we have mobility due to my position (I am a software engineer with 16 years experience and have strong links with one of the world's largest international companies) but don't make the mistake of thinking that normal people can just hop over and work in another country on a whim. It also means she is dependent on me... Which for a strong-minded German lady is not a good thing.


It may not look good in your Girlfriends specific case. But what you have said here is that it proves 'difficult' to move to these countries to work. Difficulty should not be a reason to be unfair the the world at large wouldn't you agree?

It looks good for the greater population of the world. The equalization of opportunity is not intolerant, it is not unfair, it is inherently more fair and inherently more tolerant. EU immigration laws made it more difficult for people from outside the EU to move here to work, it wasn't the case that people from Africa, India or Australia had the same opportunities as those from France or Germany. My own BJJ professor found this out the hard, and long way. This is inherently unfair and should not be held up as a morally superior position.

You have hope for your business - well and good. I'm sure you'll be fine, though depending on your industry you may see a drop in revenue due to the weakened economy (even if you're export-led the latest analysis indicates in most cases the weak pound is likely to be overridden by weakened demand and heightened import costs) but it's unlikely to materially affect your livelihood.


My business is Marketing. It is well known that during recession, one of the first parts of a companies budget is to cut marketing spend. So it is likely that destabilization of the economy will hit my business directly and immediately. I did not make my decision from the position of someone who's industry is unshakable. My industry is extremely fragile, especially for smaller consultation businesses like my own. So the argument that I am ignorant to the consequences is mute.

The promises that were made to you (and other people voting Leave) just aren't going to be fulfilled. They were never possible. According to law professors leaving the EU is a challenge of "incomparable challenge and depth", dwarving any previous breakup or decolonialisation of a sovereign country.


I did not vote based on the 'leave campaign'. I am of the opinion that the IN and OUT campaigns where absolutely filled with lies and half truths.

To address your points:

Free Trade

- Free trade agreements within the EU are unlikely to happen without freedom of movement and payment into the EU budget (BTW the Switzerland and Norway models were already under pressure - and they have to accept a lot of rules without even getting to vote on them!)
- Any trade deal with the EU requires national ratification giving a veto to every single EU country (all the way down to the assembly for the 76,000 strong German-speaking community of Belgium!)
- Britain outside the EEA will also have to renegotiate or reconfirm a web of EU-negotiated free trade deals with dozens of countries that anchor the UK in world commerce but are not automatically inherited if it leaves - the cost of this will be vast and has been estimated to be likely to take well over 10 years, far longer than the timeframe for leaving the EU
- Oh and the UK hardly has any skilled trade negotiators because they were all European


- Free trade agreements around the world are not predicated by the free movement of people. The idea of 'Free trade' being reliant on the freedom of movement is flawed in my opinion, as is the notion of 'free trade' at all. Free trade is simply the terms of an agreement, it is nothing more than that... this is not predicated on the free movement of anyone, and objectively neither should it be.
- I am not sure why this is a problem, the ratification of trade agreements is not a one way street. It is in the interest of EU member states to strike a mutually beneficial trade deal with the UK. The idea that 'they hold all the cards' is simply false. We too have to agree to the terms of the deals struck.
- The IN campaign made a big play of this, the 10 year timeframe is predicated largely on the thought that we would have to start from scratch on all trade. This is simply false and again an intellectually dishonest argument. The pertinent question should be ...Would ANY EU country want to be without the British market place for 10 years and what would the economic impact be of stalling negotiations for the countries we want to strike deals with. The fact is that it would be a huge loss to the economy of most EU member states if any deal negotiations were to take that long.
- The last point seems to be an emotional one rather than anything to be taken objectively. We have some of the greatest economic minds in the western world in this country.

EU Law

- EU-related law makes up at least a sixth of the UK statute book - and is signed into law
- There are also over 10,000 EU regulations with direct effect covering everything from bank and consumer rules to food standards, which cease to apply the moment Britain leaves.
- A good chance to clean the stature book? Maybe but the cost is vast and will take decades. Nothing will change any time soon.
- Many of the direct EU regulations will disappear overnight and people will wonder why they can't claim money back from their bank, get their flight refunded, why food standards have dropped, why advertising is suddenly worse etc


All of these points relate to a similar thing and work from 1 basic assumption. That the UK would have any interest in repealing or amending any of the, largely useful EU laws that we have adopted. This assumption, again, represents a logical disconnect.

There is no reason to think that the UK should or would be required to unpick the EU regulations that make up that 10,000. Many of them were present in in our system anyway and have simply been amendments and almost all of them would be as relevant to a Britain outside of the EU as inside it. The reality is we would be able to just tick off almost all of them as 'relevant' and 'can stay'.

The idea that the MOST inclusive, Law rich and cultural diverse nation on the planet would suddenly strip away basic 1st world rights like the ability to claim money from their banks, get flight refunds and maintain food standards is absolutely and totally ludicrous and again, a failure of logic. I am honestly surprised you think this would be a serious consideration for anyone in any position of power in the UK.

Cost of the EU

- Statistics given for the net cost of EU membership were not true - they are roughly £135m/week not £350m/week as the Leave statistics both weren't accurate and didn't take into account incoming funds (see the rapidly withdrawn "money for NHS pledge")
- Net cost of EU membership would be overwhelmed by even a 0.5% drop in GDP - this year GDP growth has been estimated to drop from 2% to 0.2% as a direct result of Brexit (even though nothing will have happened yet!)


135 million is still, 135 million. The fact that this is less than the 350 million that the leave campaign quoted doesn't change the fact that it is still ..135 million. A figure that dwarfs other member states membership. This should highlight the problem with the system.

The net cost of EU membership should take into account all the years of membership. Not the GDP this year. Again it is intellectually dishonest to not look at the bigger picture here.

Immigration

- Immigration is unlikely to drop to the promised level (to 10,000s from 330,000/year - promise already withdrawn) - people are NOT going to be happy about this
- Any drop will result in huge damage to the livelihood of those EU members who have made their homes here and contribute far more taxes than they take in welfare
- Those who are most likely to leave are those without families - the young and skilled who don't draw upon the state


Any drop in net immigration will have no impact at all for those already here. Again we have a logical disconnect in that the idea that lowering the yearly net immigration would directly affect those who have already moved to this country. Immigration is the movement of a NEW number of people to this country and does not consider the millions of people already here. They are, and should be, exempt from immigration figures.

Let me give you an example of the inherent problem with the EU's immigration policy.

A close friend of mine, a young man of 22 fled here when he was 4 with his mother and father from Sri Lanka. They had been persecuted and threatened with death. His mother and father are doctors. They were offered asylum in the UK and continued to work as doctors in our country. This kid excelled and was offered a place in a very prestigious university at the age of 17.

At the age of 18 he was told that he no longer qualified for asylum and would have to be deported back to Sri Lanka. He has spent the last 4 years fighting this to stay in the country he calls home, with his friends. In his time fighting this decision, he has gained 10 A levels and has had to push back his application to University 4 times. He is now facing the reality that he if he has to push back again this year, his dream of becoming a research biologist is dead. This is a truly valuable member of our society whose ability to remain in the country he grew up in is threatened.

Conversely a close friend of his, who came up through school with him as a friend and equal, applied for and got a place in university immediately and now has his degree. His friend was from an EU member state and had absolutely no hoops to jump through.

This disconnect, between the reality of immigration or asylum for those in the EU and those outside of it, is sickeningly unfair and discriminatory. It hits close to home for me and i will not accept that the EU model of immigration is better than one in which we have the say and in which the world is on an equal footing. If you think this is a fair and morally just system of inclusion and diversity ... well ...

- I'm not even going to get started on this one! Briefly, long term estimates from respectable financial institutions have estimated the medium term cost as being between 4-8% of GDP. We're likely to see a drop of about 2% just this year.


We should not get into this. It is a quagmire. I actually probably agree with you that there have been unexpected consequences. although our reasons for said falls are probably different. I am of the opinion that the lack of market security and the fall in the pound are directly related to the complete shambles of our political establishment, it is understandable that companies will not invest if they do not know how our country is going to be run or by whom.

No-one knows (and you're assuming competence and humanity on the part of the new wave of politicians). Given how central immigration was to the Leave campaign, it is unlikely to be "business as usual" unless the EU strong-arms the UK into accepting significant freedom of movement in return for access to the EEA.

- There is no legal guarantee on acquired rights once Britain leaves the EU
- It is quite likely that documentary proof of right of residence or a points system will apply to incoming - or even current - residents
- If this is anything along the lines of the existing Tier 2 system for non-EU residents, then claiming residency will be very difficult if you have any significant time outside the country (such as travelling!) or if you fail to keep documentary paperwork such as P60s


Again, you paint Britian as some backward nation of idiots when it comes to fundamental human rights and I just see no evidence of that. You talk in 'ifs', 'likelys' and 'no guarantees', the reality is that we ARE the most inclusive and diverse country in Europe. Due to our association with the ex empire countries we have a population more diverse than any other country in Europe, we had that BEFORE the EU. So the idea that we would somehow revert to some lawless nonsense is just a mis-representation of the values the UK has demonstrated and led the way in for more time than any other European Country.

Again with all that said, I wish you all the best and hope that Brexit doesnt hit you too hard where it hurts.

I hope that once our politicians grow a backbone the country can settle down a bit and return to some sort of unity. The division between the ins and outs is not as black and white as many here would and do believe. It seems that there is 90% grey and 5% either side of extreme view. The sooner we all realize that, the better it will be for this country.

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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:42 am

Rob wrote:True, the irony for me is just from seeing comments on some of the FB groups or from some of the more EDL types. It think there was simplistic hype on both sides, which was a shame as it obscured many deeper and more important issues. For example what happened to Greece was a big factor in my decision


I know mate.. What happened in Cyprus when the banks failed was also pretty awful, and may have even set a precedent. But my feeling is they took a liberty because Cyprus is such a small fish. Can you imagine if they tried to do that in Italy next for example - force a raid on their bank accounts basically. Bail outs to bail ins..
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby mrtoes on Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:14 pm

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Underlying it I note a confidence that the UK matters a great deal more than I think it does. I would agree with your observations of immigration injustice (in particular it's reluctance to take in asylum seekers) but would note that this is unrelated to and doesn't preclude freedom of movement within the EU.

Other than that, I'm done here as well - I have some related and somewhat stressful considerations to take care of which demand my time.

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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:49 pm

Other than that, I'm done here as well - I have some related and somewhat stressful considerations to take care of which demand my time.


All the best my friend. Hope everything works out and if you ever need anything from me over here I will be there to help.

Peace
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Re: BREXIT

Postby mrtoes on Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:49 am

I am sure that it will all turn out fine. Thank you for your best wishes and the civilised discussion!
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:52 pm

RobP3 wrote:
cloudz wrote:
Rob.. I'm not sure what the irony is there, I don't think this was about "those bloody immigrants" for many "leavers". It comes down to having at the very least a semblance and modicum of control of our borders. This is something that could well tear Europe down, a simplistic view of it, doesn't do anyone any favours I'm afraid.

Everyone loves to talk about influx, but no one mentions the places in Europe that it drains and shrinks (like Lithuania and it's towns/ cities) at the same time when people can just get up and go to wherever the goings better. Not saying that should be discouraged, but the way the EU is set up right now is just way below good or optimal for many involved IMHO.


True, the irony for me is just from seeing comments on some of the FB groups or from some of the more EDL types. It think there was simplistic hype on both sides, which was a shame as it obscured many deeper and more important issues. For example what happened to Greece was a big factor in my decision


So the U.K. voted to leave the EU to block the freedom of movement for Lithuanians?

Have you been to Wilno or Bratislava or Lodz for that matter? Spend a week there and you will be clawing your way out too if you any ambitions in this life other than making just enough to pay the bills.

People leave for very good reason and if these people are no longer welcome in England then I'm sure they'll just switch to German lessons and head over there.

Besides to do business with the EU as Norway and Switzerland does the nation has to accept EU laws. If England wants a total break then fair enough but that's not what was sold by Boris, was it?

If anything Lithuania benefits from having their citizens sending money back home from abroad.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:41 am

cloudz wrote:
Rob wrote:True, the irony for me is just from seeing comments on some of the FB groups or from some of the more EDL types. It think there was simplistic hype on both sides, which was a shame as it obscured many deeper and more important issues. For example what happened to Greece was a big factor in my decision


I know mate.. What happened in Cyprus when the banks failed was also pretty awful, and may have even set a precedent. But my feeling is they took a liberty because Cyprus is such a small fish. Can you imagine if they tried to do that in Italy next for example - force a raid on their bank accounts basically. Bail outs to bail ins..


On balance do you also include the EU bringing peace to Northern Ireland? A feat the British were never ever to pull off?
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Re: BREXIT

Postby mrtoes on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:34 pm

Hi there,

The Good Friday Agreement had nothing to do with the EU. Besides those on the Sinn Fein and Unionist sides who agreed to peace, a lot of credit actually goes to Blair's persistent diplomacy where all his predecessors just wrote it off as an unsolvable problem (well or a problem they didn't want to solve) - just about the only thing I'll ever give him credit for. It's also going to be seriously jeopardised if border controls are suddenly erected between Ireland and Northern Ireland but that's another story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:37 am

grzegorz wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
cloudz wrote:
Rob.. I'm not sure what the irony is there, I don't think this was about "those bloody immigrants" for many "leavers". It comes down to having at the very least a semblance and modicum of control of our borders. This is something that could well tear Europe down, a simplistic view of it, doesn't do anyone any favours I'm afraid.

Everyone loves to talk about influx, but no one mentions the places in Europe that it drains and shrinks (like Lithuania and it's towns/ cities) at the same time when people can just get up and go to wherever the goings better. Not saying that should be discouraged, but the way the EU is set up right now is just way below good or optimal for many involved IMHO.


True, the irony for me is just from seeing comments on some of the FB groups or from some of the more EDL types. It think there was simplistic hype on both sides, which was a shame as it obscured many deeper and more important issues. For example what happened to Greece was a big factor in my decision


So the U.K. voted to leave the EU to block the freedom of movement for Lithuanians?

Have you been to Wilno or Bratislava or Lodz for that matter? Spend a week there and you will be clawing your way out too if you any ambitions in this life other than making just enough to pay the bills.

People leave for very good reason and if these people are no longer welcome in England then I'm sure they'll just switch to German lessons and head over there.

Besides to do business with the EU as Norway and Switzerland does the nation has to accept EU laws. If England wants a total break then fair enough but that's not what was sold by Boris, was it?

If anything Lithuania benefits from having their citizens sending money back home from abroad.


Yea sure, you got it nailed brother. It's all good, until it isn't.
Lithuania benefits from people sending back cash, it also loses those people from it's own economy. I would say net loss easily for the country and the people left there..

Not that I am arguing against people moving around of course. I am just pointing out that people hardly ever take note of the other side of that coin. As if it doesn't matter (to) or effect anyone at all.. You sort of prove my point. Knowing people that have gone back (to Lithuania) not everyone there shares your bullishness for the sanctity of EU free movement. It's not all upside in a zero sum game, how can it be..

I think there are better ways than what stood/ stands. It's fine if you don't, I don't care to debate the specifics now.
We've made our choice, I just hope our government respects it now.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:40 am

grzegorz wrote:
cloudz wrote:
Rob wrote:True, the irony for me is just from seeing comments on some of the FB groups or from some of the more EDL types. It think there was simplistic hype on both sides, which was a shame as it obscured many deeper and more important issues. For example what happened to Greece was a big factor in my decision


I know mate.. What happened in Cyprus when the banks failed was also pretty awful, and may have even set a precedent. But my feeling is they took a liberty because Cyprus is such a small fish. Can you imagine if they tried to do that in Italy next for example - force a raid on their bank accounts basically. Bail outs to bail ins..


On balance do you also include the EU bringing peace to Northern Ireland? A feat the British were never ever to pull off?


No, I don't charge them with peace keeping.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:05 am

The fact is EU open borders shows that if you allow people to live wherever they want and take whatever opportunities they want then it's much easier for people to resolve their differences than oppression ever will.

 

Why Brexit creates a huge problem for Northern Ireland's border

Updated by Brad Plumer on June 29, 2016, 9:42 a.m. ET @[email protected]

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There’s plenty to worry about if the United Kingdom actually leaves the European Union. But one particularly fraught question is what will happen to the open border between Northern Ireland (part of the UK) and the Republic of Ireland (part of the EU).

If the UK wants to tightly control immigration — which was the entire point of Brexit — then it may need to restrict its border with the Republic of Ireland, which still allows unlimited migration to and from other EU countries. But doing so could have staggering implications for Northern Ireland, which is still recovering from decades of sectarian tensions and violence.

And yet, incredibly, few politicians gave this issue any attention at all in the lead-up to the Brexit vote. It’s a mess.

How Brexit could make a complete hash of the Irish border

Some quick background: Back in the 1920s, Ireland gained independencefrom the UK; the treaty creating the country allowed Northern Ireland’s parliament the option of staying in the UK, which it took. In the decades thereafter, the regions shared a porous border, with no need for citizens to show a passport as they cross:

(Jonto/Wikimedia Commons)

This changed in the 1970s when the security situation worsened. To (vastly) oversimplify things, Northern Ireland is split between a Protestant majority that identifies as British and a sizable Catholic minority that identifies as Irish. Tensions boiled over with "the Troubles," driven in part by discrimination against Catholics and their exclusion from government, and featuring serious rioting and domestic terrorist violence. In response, the British military set up checkpoints and guard towers along the border with Ireland.

Those tensions settled down after the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, and the border is now porous again. Today, people travel freely between Ireland and Northern Ireland, signage is scarce, and it’s often tough to tell where the border even sits. The open border is a tangible sign of the end of the Troubles, and it’s a way for northern Catholics to maintain ties to the country they identify with.

So now comes Brexit. One of the main arguments for leaving the EU was that Britain should be able to control its own borders. Under EU law, the UK currently has to allow unlimited migration from France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, or any other EU member. During the eurozone crisis, Britain has seen a sharp rise in immigration from less affluent countries. Lots of British people don’t like this.

By leaving, the UK could legally restrict those flows. But, of course, any migrants in the EU could all travel freely to Ireland and hop over to the UK via Northern Ireland if they wanted. So if Britain really wants control of its borders, it will have to tighten up the Irish border.

The catch is that no one knows what this would entail. Peter Moloney, a visiting assistant professor of history at Boston College who studies EU governance, explains that the details will have to be negotiated between the EU and UK. But as an example, other borders between the EU and non-EU countries involve checkpoints, traffic stops, fences, and so on.

Practically speaking, that could prove difficult in Northern Ireland. The 310-mile border with the Republic of Ireland is poorly marked and often crosses existing farms and properties. Plus, there are tons of small country roads and byways throughout the region. Do they all get checkpoints? On top of that, many people live and work on both sides of the border. A recent tweetstorm by Séamas O'Reilly illustrated this well:

Politically, things get even dicier. The 1998 Good Friday Agreement created a delicate power-sharing structure within Northern Ireland that was marked by compromise and ambiguity. The Protestants implicitly conceded that it was reasonable for Catholics to pursue closer ties with Ireland, while the Catholics implicitly conceded that formal unification with Ireland was unlikely. The free flow of people and trade enabled by the EU allowed Catholics to pursue those ties without requiring actual unification.

Creating a hard border could reignite those tensions. "If you’re setting up a border again, it brings back that ‘us-versus-them’ mentality and the echoes of confrontation, which has been broken down a lot in the past generation," says Moloney.

Even more concretely: Under the Good Friday Agreement, Northern Ireland can technically hold a referendum on whether to gain independence from the UK and unite with Ireland. So long as an open border existed, this was never a real issue; polling last year suggested that only 14 percent of Northern Irish people wanted to unify with the Republic of Ireland, with even Catholics preferring to stay in the UK.

But now? "The whole thing is uncertain," Moloney adds. "And it’s a totally self-inflicted wound."

Fintan O’Toole put it much more bluntly in the Irish Times: "English nationalists have placed a bomb under peace process." And here’s Pauline McCallion in Vox: "I live in Northern Ireland, and I'm scared Brexit will bring back the chaos of my childhood."

So what happens next?Photo by Thomas Lohnes/Getty Images

No one really knows. The British people have voted, via referendum, to break up with the EU, but Britain still has to invoke Article 50 to formally leave. The government isn't bound to do so, and so far it hasn't, but it’d also be tough to defy popular will.

If Article 50 is invoked, the United Kingdom will have two years to negotiate an exit with the EU, during which time free trade and open borders between the UK and Ireland will persist. That’s when the details on the border would get hashed out.

David Cameron, who is still the British prime minister until October, has said the government will "fully involve" Northern Ireland on the exact terms of Brexit, without getting into more detail.

Enda Kenny, the prime minister of the Republic of Ireland wants to keep the border with Northern Ireland open. "[Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Great Britain] all share the common objective of wanting to preserve the common travel area, and an open border on the island of Ireland," he said recently.

Again, though, figuring this out in practice will be incredibly tricky: If the UK border with Ireland does get closed, there are big problems for Northern Ireland. If it doesn’t get closed, then there’s an easy path for migrants within the EU to get into the UK — something that Brexit proponents oppose. A third option would be to institute passport controls for anyone traveling from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, though this would mean UK citizens aren’t free to travel within their own country.

What’s especially surprising is that this barely got talked about before the Brexit vote took place. "It’s one of the many things," Moloney notes, "that wasn’t thought through."

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/28/12051644/b ... rn-ireland
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:29 am

Yea, coming from an immigrant family I know full well that you don't need free for all borders to move somewhere for a new life.
And there are many immigrants first and second generation here that feel the same about the EU. So I guess your argument falls flat on it's face.

Why all the fuss over Northern Ireland.
Are we supposed to be swayed by a threat of terrorism now ?

Cyprus has been illegally occupied for decades, maybe if we had bad ass terrorists the EU or NATO or anyone might have gave a teeny tiny shit.
But you know seeing another family living illegally in your family home is something you get used to after a while, at least we get to see it now.
So please keep your fucking sob stories and scaremongering shit.

And "fuck the EU" to the sound of NWA
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby grzegorz on Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:50 am

Flat on its face? Someone here claimed that the Brexit vote was to save Lithuania. So much for that, yes?

Who cares about Northern Ireland? Perhaps those living in Northern Ireland?

Anyways, this thread and these are pretty pointless from what I can see. Now Nigel has stepped down to get his life back and it's looking like this whole thing was nothing more than a "fuck the EU" and will probably fall flat on its own English face much as they did in the Euro cup.
Last edited by grzegorz on Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby cloudz on Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:33 am

grzegorz wrote:Flat on its face? Someone here claimed that the Brexit vote was to save Lithuania. So much for that, yes?


I did not claim anything of the sort. I gave an example of a country that has suffered from a serious population decrease and the resultant economic effects for the people there. That was in response to the one sided narrative that it has to be all upside for no borders free movement. Or do you forget your own bullshit already. And ignore facts.

The Brexit vote had NOTHING to do with any other EU country other than what we want for ourselves and our country. I never claimed otherwise, that's just your own twisting (of) and skewed narrative re. our "discussion."

I hope we are clear and that you won't get away with being a smart arse with me. I'm not going to debate any more politics after the fact and with a silly manipulative cunt to boot.

Who cares about Northern Ireland? Perhaps those living in Northern Ireland?


Good for them, they can follow Scotland out of our Union if they want can't they. There's this little thing called democracy, maybe you have heard of it.
They are part of ours for now, the rest is up to them.

Anyways, this thread and these are pretty pointless from what I can see. Now Nigel has stepped down to get his life back and it's looking like this whole thing was nothing more than a "fuck the EU" and will probably fall flat on its own English face much as they did in the Euro cup.


Right you're the one who has it all figured out, good for you.

Tell you what is likely to happen If our government ignores this?
UKIP will win even more votes the next election then the shit will really hit the fan for the UK.
Given our "other party" is having a so called existential crisis there is every chance UKIP could take power if the Tories don't take Brexit seriously and screw over the electorate.

Oh and it's good to know how little you think of and respect democracy.

Now you can do one if you don't mind as it's really none of your concern is it now.. It's bad enough talking between people who had a vote and a rightful say on this, let alone outsiders who don't have a clue about the UK and the people in it.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
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