BREXIT

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BREXIT

Postby KEND on Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:58 am

Any thoughts
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Michael on Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:52 am

Greece loosened the peanut butter jar and now Blighty's gonna go all the way?
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Re: BREXIT

Postby warriorprincess on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:03 pm

Any one who votes to follow the unholy trinity of Farage/galloway/johnson needs their head examining.
Having said that I'm unsure which way to vote and may need an appointment... :o

I feel the idea of the EU is a sound one but the execution has failed and is now gifting arguments to the "leave" campaign.
At the moment fear rules both sides; hopefully we will hear some more considered opinions as the date gets nearer...
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Re: BREXIT

Postby KEND on Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:08 pm

Getting close, gap is narrowing
Apart from Boris follies, seems affluent want Remain, less affluent [more likely to be affected by mass immigration] Exit. As in the USA populist position appears to have racist/religious undertones, difficult choice
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:29 pm

rule 19
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Re: BREXIT

Postby KEND on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:13 am

Well its almost upon us, looks like the 'outs' are in the lead. Following is an interesting article from the NY Times

European? British? These ‘Brexit’ Voters Identify as English
By STEVEN ERLANGERJUNE 16, 2016 New York Times
Residents of the Castle Point borough of Essex in England celebrated the queen’s 90th birthday this month. Castle Point is the most ethnically English part of the United Kingdom, with nearly 80 percent describing themselves as purely English, while 95 percent are white. Credit Andrew Testa for The New York Times
SOUTH BENFLEET, England — The topic of the local debate was Britain’s imminent vote on whether to leave the European Union, and the discussion in this English town on the southeastern coast turned to the influx of European citizens into Britain.
“Why do they all want to come here?” demanded one woman, angrily making the case for Britain to leave the bloc at the debate in South Benfleet, organized by the local council. “They want our wages and our benefits! We’re too bloody soft!”
Paddy Ashdown, a former leader of the Liberal Democrats and a supporter of remaining in the European Union in the vote next Thursday, shook his head and responded with a touch of bitterness: “Well, I’ve not seen much evidence of that here.”
If Britain votes to leave, it will be in large part because of strong anti-Europe sentiment in much of England, the heart of the movement to divorce Britain from the Continent. Pollsters and analysts say that while Scotland and Northern Ireland are expected to vote overwhelmingly to stay in the bloc, England, far more populous, is likely to go the other way, reflecting a broad and often bluntly expressed view that English identity and values are being washed away by subordination to the bureaucrats of Brussels.
English flags at an amusement park in Southend-on-Sea in Essex, a part of England where nationalism, and opposition to remaining in the European Union, are strong. Credit Andrew Testa for The New York Times
That sense of resurgent Englishness is palpable in places like South Benfleet, in the heart of a district that is the most ethnically English part of the United Kingdom, according to the Office of National Statistics based on the 2011 census, with nearly 80 percent describing themselves as purely English, while 95 percent are white. They are older than the national average, and only about one-quarter of 1 percent are foreign citizens, very low compared with the rest of Britain.
South Benfleet is a suburban and largely working-class town in the Castle Point district of Essex, full of people who have made it out of London’s tough East End to a kind of English paradise with lots of single-family homes, lawns, beaches, seaside amusement parks and fish-and-chip shops.
The people here are fiercely English, fiercely Conservative and fiercely pro-Brexit, as the possible exit is being called, and many feel that their sovereignty and identity are being diluted by a failing European Union and an “uncontrolled” influx of foreigners.
A dog belonging to Rebecca Harris, a Conservative member of Parliament for Castle Point, waited out a referendum debate in South Benfleet last week. The so-called Brexit vote is next week. Credit Andrew Testa for The New York Times
“People here are self-reliant and very hardheaded, and they have sacrificed for our independence and want to retain it,” said Bob Spink, a former Conservative member of Parliament from Essex who was an early supporter of a British exit. He compared Essex, which is often the butt of “dumb blonde” jokes in the rest of Britain, to Texas.
The first legislator to defect to the anti-immigration, anti-Europe U.K. Independence Party, or UKIP, back in 2007, Mr. Spink quit the Tories because he wanted a referendum on leaving the European Union. While he lost his seat in 2010 to Rebecca Harris, a Conservative, he still speaks for many here.
“People want to vote for the people who make our laws and set our taxes; they want to talk to them and be able to throw them out; and they don’t want to give up sovereignty, independence and democracy to Brussels at any price,” he said.
English nationalism is growing, and it is being encouraged by the referendum. This United Kingdom of four nations may be split in the end, with England and Wales voting narrowly to leave and Scotland and Northern Ireland voting heavily to remain. That could create further calls for pushing more governmental power to the local and regional levels, Scottish independence or the creation of a separate English parliament, as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland already have.
Bob Spink, a former Conservative member of Parliament, at his home on Canvey Island. He compared Essex to Texas. Credit Andrew Testa for The New York Times
England makes up about 85 percent of Britain’s population, and so dominates. But the English identity, while subsumed into the British one, is not entirely the same, drawing as it does on its own rich history and deeply embedded political and cultural traditions. In particular, the English are considerably less willing than their fellow Britons in Scotland and Northern Ireland to see themselves as a subset of Europe — there is more nativism and more “Little England” nationalism, which can veer into xenophobia.
Robert Tombs, a professor at St. John’s College, Cambridge, and the author of “The English and Their History,” said he saw the emergence of something deeper in what has become a debate fueled more by emotion than fact.
“The campaign seems hardly about Europe at all, but it’s all about us and the English identity,” Professor Tombs said. “There is a deep-seated sense that we the people ought to make decisions and not be led by an elite and not be told what to do by foreigners, even by the ones we like, like Obama, and there is a stubborn resistance to parades of international institutions telling us how to vote.”
Every nation has its myths, Professor Tombs said. “But myths are important, and the notion that the people decide — Magna Carta and the Reform Act — mean that those who rule us have to do what we say.”
Ms. Harris, the current member of Parliament here, supports leaving the European Union, a position that puts her at odds with Prime Minister David Cameron, a fellow Conservative, who is leading the campaign to stay in the bloc. “People can sense that politicians are not in control anymore, that they can’t deliver, and people have a very strong feeling that they’re no longer in control of their politicians,” she said.
The working class feels that it is slipping behind, people here said, and construction jobs that used to be theirs in London are now going to skilled European immigrants who work more cheaply. “People say to me that ‘we have to control the numbers to protect what we have,’ ” Ms. Harris said. “They say, ‘We’re a tiny nation and we’re full, Rebecca, we’re full.’ And there’s anger that Europe wouldn’t let us agree to have more control over who comes, that there’s a loss of control.”
David Manclark, 58, who attended the Brexit debate in South Benfleet, said that “a lot of people feel exiled in their own country.” Around here, he said, “we feel we need to be able to control our own borders and bring in the people we need.”
Robert Baron, 67, said: “It’s being British. It’s knowing that other people can’t understand our way of life as well as you can living in your own country.
A mural in Southend-on-Sea. The referendum campaign, said Robert Tombs, a professor at St. John’s College, Cambridge, “seems hardly about Europe at all, but it’s all about us and the English identity.” Credit Andrew Testa for The New York Times
Colin MacLean, 45, a local council member who helped organize the debate, was one of the few to speak out in favor of Britain remaining part of Europe. He runs a real estate agency with 30 employees. “Think of the shock Brexit would create,” he said. “Mortgage rates would rise and prices drop, and all the good work of the last few years would go to waste.”
Though he said he felt British and “not particularly European,” Mr. MacLean added: “But I like the privileges E.U. membership brings. And I don’t see problems at the borders — I see people there.”
Tom Tugendhat, a former British Army officer and new Conservative legislator from Kent, said Englishness was more an attitude than a political stance, a confused emotion wrapped up in identity. “ ‘We few, we happy few, we band of brothers’ — there’s a bit of Henry V in all of us,” he said.
“But we forget that Shakespeare emerged from the tradition of courtly love that emerged from the Continent and perhaps the Arab world,” he said, “and that Magna Carta was a Latin document immediately translated into the vernacular, which was French, and signed by a French king under pressure from mostly French barons who didn’t include most people, who were Anglo-Saxon.”
Today’s Headlines: European Morning
At the same time, Mr. Tugendhat said, globalization has prompted questions among the English like: “Who are we, and are we less of ourselves than we used to be?”
Clare Foges, a former speechwriter for Mr. Cameron, described the Conservative dilemma this way: “There is the strong element in the Tory character that is sensible, utilitarian, financially pragmatic, and there is the part that thinks to the strains of Elgar and stirs at the words ‘destiny,’ ‘democracy’ and ‘nation.’ ”
That’s the dilemma of England, too: How much economic damage are voters willing to risk for the ability to feel fully sovereign and in control of immigration?
Essex clearly wants out, and so do the most recent legislators, Mr. Spink and Ms. Harris. But both think that despite the tide of opinion in Essex, Mr. Cameron and other proponents of staying in Europe will eke out a victory. Ms. Harris laughed and said, “Cameron always wins.”
Until, of course, he doesn’t.
My comment on this as follows:

I think the nationalism plays a part in it but you have to look deeper. The feeling of helplessness on the part of the 'have nots' parallels Trumps populist appeal in the USA, its easier to go against the government than to do anything about it, and create xenophobia. The 'English thing again parallels the anti muslim and Mexican meme.
Curiously Cameron has adopted the worse possible tactics, one wonders if he in fact wants to stay in Europe---threats of disaster, rich people and 'experts dwelling on disasters, drop of value in high end real estate, this is like a red flag to a bull for people seeing their livelihood disappearing and rumors of impending invasion by millions of east Europeans and turks
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Re: BREXIT

Postby middleway on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:55 am



Worth a watch ... what a posh chap. But some good information.
Last edited by middleway on Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:25 am

Do you think the murder of Jo Cox will have any effect?
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Re: BREXIT

Postby RobP2 on Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:49 am

Steve James wrote:Do you think the murder of Jo Cox will have any effect?


I don't know, but it is certainly polarising opinion even more. In fact some brexiters are claiming it's a false flag....
I'm still undecided - every time I think i get somewhere I find I'm aligning with someone horrible. Part of me thinks that this is like a feudal peasant ploughing his field while two robber barons argue over who gets his grain
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:11 am

Well, whenever I have an opinion that a nationalist agrees with, I change it. However, in England, as in the U.S. and Germany, these types are always more dangerous and deadly to the people they claim they want to protect. Anyway, they've been around for a long time.

Afa Brexit, in general, if there are economic benefits, it has to be the peoples' choice. Of course, if there is an economic loss, the people will be hurting themselves. I dunno about the economics.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby emptycloud on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:22 pm

Last edited by emptycloud on Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:36 pm

rule 19
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Re: BREXIT

Postby KEND on Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:17 am

The murder I feel was a freak occurrence, the guy was mentally disturbed. The intense media coverage of almost any subject seems to trigger a response, whether its abortions, islamists, gays etc. Each side will hint that it was triggered by other side's policies.
The Brexit phenomena has been a really nasty campaign, karl rove would be in his element here. Like many campaigns nowadays it plays on fears, smears the opposition and arouses the worst instincts of xenophobia.
The truth is nobody knows what will happen to the country economically, analysis, logic has little place in a world riven by politics, greed and religious/racial divides.
One thing for sure though, property prices in central London will drop sharply if Brexit succeeds, as the uber rich flee to new pastures. Ditto the burbs. Maybe the average wage earner will actually be able to buy a house
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Re: BREXIT

Postby Steve James on Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:49 am

Well, yeah, he was mentally disturbed. I think most deliberate murderers are, and they murder for a reason. It's not random. It's not like a lunatic escaped from an asylum and went on a rampage.

If the result is lower real estate prices, I guess that would be good. But I'm not really clear why that would happen. Otoh I don't know why being part of the EU is an advantage. Makes no difference to me.
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Re: BREXIT

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:54 pm

rule 19
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