The Russians did it.

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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Michael on Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:49 pm

No, I don't call the chemical weapons attacks a US/NATO conspiracy. I'm sure the US Pres. has better info, but the problem is that in spite of this, the US foreign policy and its results have been inconsistent and fractionalized.

I mention a string of almost completely unjustified wars with completely horrific outcomes and you bring up Hitler? I don't think it's isolationist to be pragmatic about what's been happening in Syria as the result of the variety of US foreign policies executed there.

If I get you correctly, I'm in agreement, the US should do something, but most of what it's done hasn't helped and the recent flip flop on ousting Assad, what was it—a week between Tillerson's totally contradictory statements—is another perfectly obvious example of inconsistent policy.

Sorry, but going into war from trusting the president has been a total failure since the Gulf of Tonkin. Can't think of a single exception.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Steve James on Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:27 am

the US foreign policy and its results have been inconsistent and fractionalized.


My point is that it is far too complex for simple solutions. I brought up Hitler to emphasize a point about people, not him. That is, villains don't see themselves as villains. They think they're doing the right thing, even if it's horrendous to others. Assad will never think that what he's doing is wrong, or admit it if he does.

If I get you correctly, I'm in agreement, the US should do something, but most of what it's done hasn't helped


The "but" is unnecessary, and it's generally why the US ends up doing the things you note. The question, for me, is the motive for action. Of course, the "best intentions" can lead to the poor results. Ever see people fight over food drops? Or, should we give weapons to rebels? There will always be unintended consequences, of action or inaction.

and the recent flip flop on ousting Assad, what was it—a week between Tillerson's totally contradictory statements—is another perfectly obvious example of inconsistent policy.


Don't bitch to me about the flip flops, inconsistencies, and contradictions. I never thought they had a moral position that would overcome their political, economic and ideological ends. That goes just as much for health care as it does for foreign policy. Hypocrisy and contradiction is inevitable.

Sorry, but going into war from trusting the president has been a total failure since the Gulf of Tonkin. Can't think of a single exception.


Are you accusing me of trusting Trump? :) If Obama had done it, based on the information that he trusts, I wouldn't disagree. Frankly, I suspect that he did do something, but it was not considered sufficient --such as offering something other than military aid.

Oh, and what do you think about imposing more sanctions on Iran, and tearing up the nuclear agreement, even though Tillerson admits that the Iranians have been living up to their side? And, why do you think they tried out that MOAB on a valley in Afghanistan -- when it was designed to destroy underground nuclear facilities? Why is the defense department budget being increased and armadas being sent to the Korean peninsula? Oh no, I agree with you about the lack of a consistent policy. Well, that's what happens when interests get in the way of principles.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby BruceP on Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:45 am

Steve James wrote: And, why do you think they tried out that MOAB on a valley in Afghanistan -- when it was designed to destroy underground nuclear facilities? Why is the defense department budget being increased and armadas being sent to the Korean peninsula? Oh no, I agree with you about the lack of a consistent policy. Well, that's what happens when interests get in the way of principles.


Missile systems and other ordinance have a shelf life. It's cheaper to fire em off than to update them.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Steve James on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:15 am

Missile systems and other ordinance have a shelf life. It's cheaper to fire em off than to update them.


Yeah, but firing 'em off is also the way to ensure the production of more and bigger. It also creates jobs and work for manufacturers and researchers. Besides, I'm not sure that it didn't cost a hell of a lot to deploy that particular weapon. Leave us not forget the cost of our nuclear arsenal.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby BruceP on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:41 am

Steve James wrote:
Yeah, but firing 'em off is also the way to ensure the production of more and bigger. It also creates jobs and work for manufacturers and researchers. Besides, I'm not sure that it didn't cost a hell of a lot to deploy that particular weapon. Leave us not forget the cost of our nuclear arsenal.



Well, that was kinda my point. Regards the latest actions, that aging ordinance which has been sent keeps the Mil-Ind complex rolling. Nothing to do with principles or even what's right/moral/just. It's the business of being a nation built on the profits of manufacturing and supplying half the world with explodey stuff. .
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Steve James on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:09 pm

Hey BruceP, I got your first post :) I agree completely that it had more to do with things other than principles or morality. Otoh, the question is whether even immoral or amoral actions can have "unintended" moral consequences. On the face of it, dropping a bomb to kill people can't be considered moral. But, that's the problem. There's always denial and counter-accusations, especially about who started it.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:42 pm

Black Pigeon Speaks analysis of the April 4 chemical weapon attack references two US experts, Scott Ritter and MIT Prof. Postol, who believe it's not what it seems.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqeDhMOoys

Long list of sources.

Notably from Scott Ritter:
Dereliction of Duty, Redux
Posted on Apr 12, 2017
By Scott Ritter
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/der ... x_20170412
Wag The Dog — How Al Qaeda Played Donald Trump And The American Media
Responsibility for the chemical event in Khan Sheikhoun is still very much in question.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/syr ... f0a02fca4d

And Prof. Postol
A Quick Turnaround Assessment of the White House Intelligence Report
Issued on April 11, 2017
About the Nerve Agent Attack in Khan Shaykhun, Syria.
Theodore A. Postol
Professor Emeritus of Science, Technology, and National Security Policy
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Vs2r ... ExMnc/view

White House claims on Syria chemical attack ‘obviously false’ – MIT professor (VIDEO) — RT America
https://www.rt.com/usa/384520-postol-re ... rin-syria/

MIT professor exposes ‘egregious error’ & evidence tampering in US report on Syria sarin incident
Published time: 14 Apr, 2017 21:15
Edited time: 15 Apr, 2017 18:41
https://www.rt.com/usa/384800-syria-gas ... -addendum/
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:47 pm

Prof. Postol says part of the intelligence report about the ability of US infrared satellites to see where missiles landed is obviously false and proves fabrication in the intelligence being given to the President.

White House claims on Syria chemical attack ‘obviously false’ – MIT professor (VIDEO) — RT America

Go to 1:50 in the four and a half minute video.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOKOwgeFcG4
Last edited by Michael on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:17 pm

Michael wrote:Prof. Postol says part of the intelligence report about the ability of US infrared satellites to see where missiles landed is obviously false and proves fabrication in the intelligence being given to the President.

White House claims on Syria chemical attack ‘obviously false’ – MIT professor (VIDEO) — RT America


Will check them a little later thanks...What I noted was in some of the decontamination
clips the people doing it where not protected in the way that someone would be in dealing with nerve agent.

Also just washing them is not the way to treat for the effects of the agent...
Image
https://chemm.nlm.nih.gov/na_prehospital_mmg.htm
Understand the reasons behind why the US launched the attack but not exactly
the who or what really happened..a little skeptical given the public information available.

Sarin is highly toxic, whether by contact with the skin or breathed in. The toxicity of sarin in humans is largely based on calculations from studies with animals. The lethal concentration of sarin in air is approximately 35 mg per cubic meter per minute for a two-minute exposure time by a healthy adult breathing normally (exchanging 15 liters of air per minute). This number represents the estimated lethal concentration for 50% of exposed victims, the LCt50 value. There are many ways to make relative comparisons between toxic substances.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:29 pm

Still have not heard one reason why Assad would do it.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:49 pm

So, who did it; and why is Trump trying to fool us?
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Michael on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:10 pm

Steve James wrote:So, who did it; and why is Trump trying to fool us?

I don't know if Trump is trying to fool us, but I doubt it. I think the same people who gave faulty intelligence to Bush and Obama in order to fool them into war are doing the same to Trump because they profit from war in general, and perhaps believe in some geo-political strategy that is beneficial to the USA long term, and when Syria refused to support the second Gulf War they made the list.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby Steve James on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:08 am

So, someone whom we don't know is manipulating Trump. Ok. I thought he was the independent, intelligent leader who wasn't susceptible to the incompetence of the previous administrations. At any rate, Obama gave a long explanation of why he wouldn't commit troops to Syria. But, Trump did. I don't think it's fair to compare Trump to Obama, or any previous president, when it comes to attacking Iran. The people who profit from the war industry (and America leads the world in that regard) didn't change from the last administration to this.

I don't think Trump is trying to fool anyone either. That happened a long time ago. The point is that he's the only one who can order the strikes or give others the authority to strike (another country). And, he can use the entire US arsenal. It was argued that his business experience and morality would pull us through or out. But, obviously, his military stance benefits the military-industrial-complex (as well as the prison-industrial-complex). I thought they said that relations with Russia would improve because of him, and the risk of a nuclear confrontation (aka WW3) would diminish. I thought we were going to let other nations decide for themselves their leaders and forms of government.

Anyway, if he bombs someone blame him. He did it. If not, don't blame Obama as a representative of the deep state. That militaristic, quasi-imperialistic, US/NATO that you talk about. Well, Trump represents their interests better than any previous president. At least Bush's America (and his dad) was attacked. He had an excuse.

It's just as likely that Trump attacked for purely political reasons. If he starts a war, he'll get the same support that Bush did. As you pointed out, the targets had relatively little military value, etc., etc.. Our fearless leader must have known that. He said he was smarter than the generals, remember.
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Re: The Russians did it.

Postby grzegorz on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:43 am

Exclusive: Putin-linked think tank drew up plan to sway 2016 U.S. election - documents

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN17L2N3
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