Human Races

[Michael]

Time for some extreme vetting.

http://www.tilveran.is/link.aspx?linkid=41545

Somehow this seems appropriate for this thread.

Just in case anyone wants the youtube link for that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Zdx97A63s

Extreme vetting is nice and only a man like Trump could have thought of it, but how do you really know the person being vetted isn't just telling you what you want to hear, unless you give 'em a litte sumpin' sumpin' from the enhanced interrogation tool kit? EV / EI is the only way for America to be safe. Like the guy said in the video, the extremists could be anywhere.

I think we all knew that Gitmo would eventually become the new Ellis Island and they've been stress testing Muslims there for over ten years, with much experience detecting their religious affiliation because we discovered they actually howl if you defile their favorite book. Trump, are you listening?

[Steve James]

On the topic of extreme vetting, there'll be plenty of people who'll argue that it's ok to be done to other people (ethnicities, cultures, religions, whatever they choose). The same goes for more extreme torture. Trump's for it, and his supporters will go along with it. They express no principle that would restrict their action.

The irony is that any immigrant who has bothered to become USAamerican knows way more about the country than the people who want them vetted. It's almost as bad when it comes to the Bible.

[cloudz]

The title of this thread is "human races." The question is "are there?" The answer is no. There is only one.

You're the equivocator, or either being deliberately dense.

There is not even one, that's a bad mistake or assumption and creates a problem you're struggling to deal with.

Technically there are no "races" as per the original concept and literal definition. Race has no meaning technically; even if you say human "race", it doesn't mean anything or add anything because there is no definition that adds (any meaning) or differentiates it from simply "human beings" or "humans" the way it's used.

If you think it has a literal/factual or some other meaning as part of "Human race", then tell me what is it that "race" specifies in the term "human race". What is it about ANY human that "race" describes?

So no there is not one "race" either because race is completely meaningless in that context. I would agree that at the end of the day there are only human beings. You need to get rid of and reject the term "human race" too if you want to be consistent in your argument(s) Steve.

I'm not an equivocator regards the term race, I am pointing out to you that it is a metaphor at best in the right context. And now I am pointing out to you that it is meaningless in the context of "one race" as race has no meaning in of itself. We are not a "race" of anything, what does race mean in that context, where "being" or "people" will do just fine. "One people" is better than "one race" and "human being(s)" is better than "Human race". Better, more accurate, more to the point.

People and beings we can identify with.

Well, language is the way culture is passed on. You can cite a definition of ethnicity that pleases you. Post it. In any case, it has nothing to do with this discussion of "race." That is, unless you want to argue that ethnicity is race, something that you've already denied. Viz. your English v. Irish comments.

I didn't say it is race, I said "race" covers for it (ethnicity) - when used like a metaphor... contextually.

I maintain that "English" and "Irish", "Jamaican" etc. are ethnicity and I would add that skin colour and many differences etc. are an extension of that.
Sometimes we might lump ethnic groups together and say "African" or something like that.

Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

[Michael]

On the topic of extreme vetting, there'll be plenty of people who'll argue that it's ok to be done to other people (ethnicities, cultures, religions, whatever they choose). The same goes for more extreme torture. Trump's for it, and his supporters will go along with it. They express no principle that would restrict their action.

The irony is that any immigrant who has bothered to become USAamerican knows way more about the country than the people who want them vetted. It's almost as bad when it comes to the Bible.

Vetting is only one letter away from petting.

[Steve James]

Ok, you win. There's no such thing as race.

[cloudz]

It's not about winning or whatever. Some of the talk earlier was about "science" and how educating people on how "race" is a defunct concept was some sort of answer against actual racism. I just think it's a shallow take on things from the start of the thread. From there it's pretty predictable stuff all round.. "Race" is an often used word nowadays, to that no one can deny and clearly is used to describe something other than it's original/ literal definition in the vast majority of cases.

Any attempt in the same breath to uphold the terminology of one human race in the literal/ factual sense, only to argue against its plural term races is doomed to only muddle and confuse the issue further as well as fuel and perpetuate it's uses in such literal sense. IOW making race that much more real in peoples minds and upholding some kind of racial status quo if you like, in the process. Much better to recognise its widespread modern use as a metaphor from the get go.

You can thank me later.

[Michael]

Don't think so, Cloudz. No offense intended, but the points you've made just seem like ways to shut down a conversation that perhaps you've gotten burnt out on. If so, it's understandable and your gloating is predictable as well. Other points are shallow but the massive enlightenment you gave about colloquialisms and multiple meanings burns brightly in the heavens.

[cloudz]

I'm burnt out on how people focus on the wrong things in this kind of topic; like an answer to Racism is based on intellectual/Academic bullshit and science.
When I say wrong things, I'm not saying the things I brought up are the "right" things even ("the answer") - I have skirted around that too; in the slightly idealistic belief that people might actually realize themselves that it's not about semantics or academic subject matter, science or otherwise.

It's simply about whether people have the capacity to be good human beings to one another despite any differences and other pressures, or whatever.
It's about what's in peoples hearts rather than minds..

You're right my gloating was a joke at how predictable I am too. ha.

[Michael]

It's simply about whether people have the capacity to be good human beings to one another despite any differences and other pressures, or whatever.
It's about what's in peoples hearts rather than minds..

So, maybe you're saying this is a better approach to the topic and the actual problem rather than to focus on linguistics?

[cloudz]

Yea, but I feel I first I have to tear certain things down.

I focus on linguistics because language(s) are the tools of the intellect and it is the tool people use to converse and communicate and make their points here. Those points can only be 'torn down' with the same tools that builds them/ makes them. This is not about logic or rationality per se for me - even my own which I use in my rhetoric to highlight certain issues (hopefully). I use semantics like a philosophical tool if you like, once I take a baseball bat to the things I don't like there's little left to stand for or left standing. (intellectually speaking)

The answer is not just some other form of Rhetoric as a replacement about this or simply using preferred language - although I think that can help a lot and facilitate better understandings. I think seeing the linguistic/ semantic side a bit clearer is better than it staying muddied - I hopefully done that a little, even if you guys might condescend about it somewhat as you have for a few posts now.

Racism is just another form or way to hate/exclude/abuse someone else (or a group) rather than accept/love/respect them for what they are. That's the heart of the matter so to speak. Why are people like that and what causes such feelings and what are the real answers to having hate in ones heart however it might be expressed.

That to me is the real meat and potatoes, the real issue(s). Threads like this have a tendency to skirt around what is "the heart of the matter", in my view, as well as get bogged down on distractions.. Also propagate rationale and narrative that needs unpicking and semantic scrutiny: to show it for what it is hopefully: a distraction..

That's what I think anyway.

ps. I don't wish to tar all and sundry and all posts with one brush mind you. There has also been commentary that's been good to read I might add.

[Steve James]

Any attempt in the same breath to uphold the terminology of one human race in the literal/ factual sense, only to argue against its plural term races is doomed to only muddle and confuse the issue further as well as fuel and perpetuate it's uses in such literal sense.

There is no issue. There is no such thing as human "races." If you agree with that, then the rest of your argument is useless. It's not about terminology at all, or a word. It's about the meaning that peoples assign to the word. Those meanings are why people are attached to the concept. And, the concept was invented by people who needed to assign meaning to differences.

You can pat yourself on the back until your arm falls off. It doesn't change anything one way or another.

[Steve James]

The Denisovian -- Neanderthal issue is interesting, and admixture has been demonstrated in the genome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_h ... ern_humans

[grzegorz]

I think the best part of the video is how everyone attending the rally completely misses the irony.

[cloudz]

Any attempt in the same breath to uphold the terminology of one human race in the literal/ factual sense, only to argue against its plural term races is doomed to only muddle and confuse the issue further as well as fuel and perpetuate it's uses in such literal sense.

There is no issue. There is no such thing as human "races." If you agree with that, then the rest of your argument is useless. It's not about terminology at all, or a word. It's about the meaning that peoples assign to the word. Those meanings are why people are attached to the concept. And, the concept was invented by people who needed to assign meaning to differences.

You can pat yourself on the back until your arm falls off. It doesn't change anything one way or another.

Cool!

[Michael]

I think the best part of the video is how everyone attending the rally completely misses the irony.

It's interesting how we people can just go with a simplistic argument, such as their response to Black Lives Matter being a strawman insistence that it implies other lives do not. That is one of the most massive numbskull memes of my recent memory.