Philippine president

[Steve James]

There has been an epidemic of drug overdoses in the States, and an epidemic of drug cartel murders in Mexico. Imo, murder and killing do not seem to be smart answers to those problems. And murder is even frowned upon by some religions, no matter the public opinion.

If the argument was that western media reports of what the president said were incorrect and that there were no murders being committed without benefit of judge or jury, that would make sense. It would clearly be wrong to be lied to about those things.

However, if the argument is that yeah they are allowing the murders, but they know what they're doing, then that's simply immoral. Btw, I can completely go along with the suggestion that if I were a Filipino, I would be doing the same thing. Sure, but that wouldn't make it right. The historical comparisons of how seemingly logical societies can become murderous are too easy to make. But, for me, I tell my children that whatever someone will do to someone else, they will surely be capable of doing to you --especially if it is illegal.

[Michael]

Troll.

your good with names,,,,

its ok, your in good company with some others here...
they dont like facts either...

A lot of people say here that you're a troll, including me, because that's how you post. And your ratio of fact to vague, meaningless allusions is nothing to be proud of.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

they dont like facts either

From the guy who constantly posts videos from FOX News and extreme pundits...

I mean, seriously, Windy is either the most impressive prankster in history or one of the biggest idiots I have ever interacted with.

[windwalker]

they dont like facts either

From the guy who constantly posts videos from FOX News and extreme pundits...

I mean, seriously, Windy is either the most impressive prankster in history or one of the biggest idiots I have ever interacted with.

If you and the others want to have a circle jerk make your own thread, go for it.


There are some posters here who post relevant to the topic.

This is from a Filipino woman whose post I shared on my timeline:

A letter to my friends and family in the US and elsewhere

Let's get this straight.

MOST Filipinos support him. 91 percent of the country does. Filipinos are not stupid, ignorant, or naive. They know how the country is and they believe Duterte is the best president they've ever had. If Duterte was as corrupt as Western media portrays him to be, they would've ousted him. Filipinos have ousted corrupt presidents before. This guy has the balls to take on international cartels and now they are putting a price tag on his head. Drug cartels dont usually target corrupt politicians.

Moral of the story? Western media is only scratching the surface with their reports. If you want the truth, go talk to a Filipino that was born, raised, and living there now.

How is any of the shit you and the others talk about related to this ?

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Well, as you long ago made it crystal-clear that you have no interest in presenting facts, logical or thoughtful arguments, or even a willingness to honestly present your opinion, I long ago decided not to waste the time presenting the same.

As far as being impressive or an idiot, clearly you win the prize: impressively idiotic.

Now, to the others who post about deposing political leaders: Is that an openly stated aim of the US gov? Or is it rhetoric meant to distract from real problems facing the Philippines? Also, does that issue need to be connected with extrajudicial killings? Does a democratic majority approving of wrong make that wrong right? If not, how can that be a relevant argument? If murder is okay, then maybe it would be better to start making abortions accessible and socially acceptable at the same (90%+) rate? It arguably helped with the crime rates in many other countries, including the US. Finally, to those who study premodern and early modern history, the problems with these sorts of killings is obvious. People will (and probably already are) kill for other reasons: jealousy, greed, revenge, etc...There is plenty of precedent.

[junglist]

Let's get this straight.

MOST Filipinos support him. 91 percent of the country does. Filipinos are not stupid, ignorant, or naive. They know how the country is and they believe Duterte is the best president they've ever had. If Duterte was as corrupt as Western media portrays him to be, they would've ousted him. Filipinos have ousted corrupt presidents before. This guy has the balls to take on international cartels and now they are putting a price tag on his head. Drug cartels dont usually target corrupt politicians.

Moral of the story? Western media is only scratching the surface with their reports. If you want the truth, go talk to a Filipino that was born, raised, and living there now. Please don't compare Duterte to Trump.

Without knowing much about the Philippines except tourist information and other basic info, the impression I've gotten from news headlines is Duterte is calling for extrajudicial violence in the streets. Is that accurate?

No.

[junglist]

they dont like facts either

From the guy who constantly posts videos from FOX News and extreme pundits...

I mean, seriously, Windy is either the most impressive prankster in history or one of the biggest idiots I have ever interacted with.

If you and the others want to have a circle jerk make your own thread, go for it.


There are some posters here who post relevant to the topic.

This is from a Filipino woman whose post I shared on my timeline:

A letter to my friends and family in the US and elsewhere

Let's get this straight.

MOST Filipinos support him. 91 percent of the country does. Filipinos are not stupid, ignorant, or naive. They know how the country is and they believe Duterte is the best president they've ever had. If Duterte was as corrupt as Western media portrays him to be, they would've ousted him. Filipinos have ousted corrupt presidents before. This guy has the balls to take on international cartels and now they are putting a price tag on his head. Drug cartels dont usually target corrupt politicians.

Moral of the story? Western media is only scratching the surface with their reports. If you want the truth, go talk to a Filipino that was born, raised, and living there now.

How is any of the shit you and the others talk about related to this ?

?

[junglist]

Again,

You people need to talk to Filipinos and ask them why they (the majority of them) like Duterte.

[junglist]

Did an act of God take out the Navy too? I was in the Navy at the time when they closed down Subick with a lot of Filipinos also in the Navy and they told me lot of Filipinos wanted the Americans out.l, including some of my own relatives.

Don't ask about my family anymore. The fact is this president's actions led to a death in my family so trying to convince me that this is a great thing is as ridiculous as it gets and basically trolling .

Sorry about your family member but
What "acts" of Duterte led to a death in your family? I'm just curious.
How can you trace it to Duterte?

[grzegorz]

@J

For the record all my information is coming from Filipinos in the Phillipines.

As far as my family I'm not debating that. It happened and I am just recounting it.

[junglist]

Can you prove to me that he approves of vigilantism or that all these killings can be traced to Duterte? You can use your information from the Filipinos you know. This will end all debate about Duterte.

[grzegorz]

This will end all debate about Duterte.

Yeah right and Pacquiao will respect gays once someone tells him that they are born that way.

[grzegorz]

No one kicked the US out. The US left.

New York Times


Philippines Orders U.S. to Leave Strategic Navy Base at Subic Bay

By DAVID E. SANGER,

BANGKOK, Thailand, Dec. 27— The Philippines told the United States today that it must withdraw from the Subic Bay naval base by the end of 1992, ending a vast American military presence that began with the capture of the islands from Spain in 1898.

The decision, which resulted from an impasse in negotiations, follows a year of intense talks between the countries on the fate of American bases in the Philippines. The announcement also comes just three days before President Bush begins a 12-day Asian tour.

The shutdown of the sprawling Subic Bay base, together with the closing of Clark Air Base after a volcanic eruption this year, amounts to the biggest reduction to date in the United States military presence in the western Pacific. The 60,000-acre Subic base is the Navy's principal supply and ship-repair installation in the region. U.S. to Look for New Sites

Although it is theoretically possible that a new agreement could be hammered out, Administration officials in Washington said that they considered this unlikely, and that they would accelerate the pullout and the search for alternative sites in the Pacific.

American and Philippine officials reached tentative agreement last summer on a treaty that would have extended the lease on the naval base for at least another decade in exchange for $203 million in annual aid. But the Philippine Senate rejected the treaty in September after an impassioned debate in which the American military presence was assailed as a vestige of colonialism and an affront to Philippine sovereignty.

The United States never increased its offer, but opened negotiations on a three-year phased withdrawal in the hope that the lease could be extended after a new government is elected in the Philippines in May.

The negotiations stumbled, officials said, over the United States' reluctance to commit itself to a firm schedule for removing troops and equipment and to guarantee that no nuclear weapons would pass through the base. Though President Bush has said that tactical nuclear weapons will be removed from surface warships, it is assumed that many of the ships that pass through the port are armed with them now.

But over the past month it has become clear in any case that the American military was reconciled to losing the base, and saw little use in dragging out the process. By the middle of 1993, most of the American personnel and much of the movable equipment would have been moved elsewhere, at a cost of billions of dollars, and sending them back would have probably proved prohibitively expensive.

"Once it begins, it is an irreversible process," a senior American official said today. "The bottom line is that we are gone."

President Corazon C. Aquino had vowed to find a way to keep the United States in place, even proposing a referendum on the issue after the Senate rejected the bases treaty. But Mrs. Aquino, who has indicated that she does not plan to seek re-election next year, eventually backed down in the face of adamant political opposition.

Money was not an issue in the impasse. In recent years, Washington has pledged a certain amount in economic, military and housing assistance instead of paying yearly rent for American bases. In the fiscal year that ended in September, the Philippines received $408 million in connection with the bases, and the Subic Bay base has pumped more than $344 million a year into the country's economy.

As the prospects of remaining in the Philippines have faded in recent months, Defense Department officials have scrambled to find alternatives. None of the proposed sites, including Singapore and Japan, two scheduled stops on the President's trip, seem to match Subic's advantages, which include huge deep-water facilities and access to the strategic waters of the South China Sea.

Subic, 50 miles west of Manila, is the last of six American bases that until recently housed 40,000 troops, dependents and civilian employees. Four others were returned to the Philippine Government this year. Clark Air Base, the other major American installation in the Philippines, was abandoned in June and eventually closed after it was buried in volcanic ash from the eruption of nearby Mount Pinatubo. Threat and Interest Wane

Both American and Philippine officials said today that the United States' willingness to retain the Subic base had waned in recent months, especially after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. "Global events overtook Subic and undermined its value," said Alan Ortiz, assistant director of the Philippine Government's National Security Council.

Franklin Drilon, one of Mrs. Aquino's top aides, said at a news conference in Manila that "the friendly and cordial relations between the United States and the Philippines will continue."

The closing of the base will mean relocating 5,800 officers and enlisted men and women, 600 civilians working for the Department of Defense and 5,000 to 6,000 military dependents. It will also be a major economic loss for the impoverished Philippines, which will lose the aid it receives annually for use of the base and the hundreds of millions of dollars in business generated by its presence.

About 20,000 Filipino workers are employed there, and the honky-tonk bars of Olongapo and Subic, the two cities that border the installation, are legendary among generations of sailors whose ships have pulled in to Subic's docks. Many predict that the cities will become neon ghost towns. Commitment to Asia Questioned

The withdrawal may also raise questions about the Bush Administration's assertion that the United States remains fully committed to Asia, a theme the President is expected to voice throughout his trip.

"Without the bases in the Philippines, I don't think there is any question that U.S. influence in Asia will decline," Masashi Nishihara, a professor at Japan's top military institute and an analyst of security policy in the Pacific, said today in a telephone interview from Tokyo.

"If events occur in the South China Sea -- a conflict between China and Taiwan, for example, or Hong Kong -- the United States may have very little ability to change events," he said. "As we learned in the Persian Gulf war, effective diplomacy has the backup of an effective military."

Singapore has already offered the United States access to ship-repair sites and says the United States can base some forces there. But the tiny island nation is too small to be of more than token use. The commander of the Pacific fleet, Adm. Charles R. Larson, said recently that he was talking with Malaysia and other nations, but that no site could match the advantages of Subic Bay, which included a plentiful and inexpensive work force.

"A lot of functions will be dispersed, and a lot will be returned to the United States," a senior American official in the Philippines said today. "And some will just disappear." Negotiators Exasperated

American officials seemed somewhat relieved that the long and often angry negotiations with the Philippines were over, and that the United States could quickly withdraw from its former military empire there. Negotiators have expressed exasperation with what they view as Mrs. Aquino's confused signals and ultimately ineffective leadership on the issue.

In the Philippine Senate, the move to eject United States forces seemed less a debate over the bases' value than a demonstration of sovereignty and national pride. The Philippines was essentially an American colony from 1898, when George Dewey sailed into Manila Bay to defeat the Spanish fleet, until 1946, when it became an independent republic.

Subic Bay, which began as a Spanish military garrison in the late 1860's, has always been a critical part of America's military operations in the Pacific. It is the main repair site for ships operating everywhere from Japan to the Indian Ocean, and marines have long been trained in jungle warfare in the wooded mountains near the base. It was the site of fierce battles with the Japanese during World War II, a staging area for naval operations during the Korean and Vietnam wars and a strategic counterpoint to Soviet forces in Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam.

But the vast American military presence has long been an irritant in the Philippines' uneasy relations with the United States. Resentment flared this year when Mrs. Aquino's Government finally negotiated the 10-year extension of the Subic Bay lease. Opposition was fierce in the Senate, where lawmakers asserted that the deal would perpetuate the country's image as an American lackey, though polls suggested that the Philippine people largely supported the treaty.

It is unclear whether nuclear weapons are stored at Subic. The United States, following its usual policy, will not say.


© 2016 The New York Times CompanySite MapPrivacyYour Ad ChoicesAdvertiseTerms of SaleTerms of ServiceWork With UsRSSHelpContact UsSite Feedback

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/28/world ... wanted=all

[windwalker]

?

Some have chosen not to address the topic.
I used your post and another post as examples of post that did.

In talking with some of my co workers American Filipinos, who do travel and have family in the Philippines they echo very strongly with what you and the other poster posted.
These guys grew up there, now in their 50s they said that they have seen a lot of presidents come and go and never thought that in their lifetimes they would see what they called real results and needed changes.

[windwalker]

No one kicked the US out. The US left.

New York Times


Philippines Orders U.S. to Leave Strategic Navy Base at Subic Bay

By DAVID E. SANGER,

BANGKOK, Thailand, Dec. 27— The Philippines told the United States today that it must withdraw from the Subic Bay naval base by the end of 1992, ending a vast American military presence that began with the capture of the islands from Spain in 1898.

The decision, which resulted from an impasse in negotiations, follows a year of intense talks between the countries on the fate of American bases in the Philippines. The announcement also comes just three days before President Bush begins a 12-day Asian tour.

The shutdown of the sprawling Subic Bay base, together with the closing of Clark Air Base after a volcanic eruption this year, amounts to the biggest reduction to date in the United States military presence in the western Pacific. The 60,000-acre Subic base is the Navy's principal supply and ship-repair installation in the region. U.S. to Look for New Sites

Although it is theoretically possible that a new agreement could be hammered out, Administration officials in Washington said that they considered this unlikely, and that they would accelerate the pullout and the search for alternative sites in the Pacific.

American and Philippine officials reached tentative agreement last summer on a treaty that would have extended the lease on the naval base for at least another decade in exchange for $203 million in annual aid. But the Philippine Senate rejected the treaty in September after an impassioned debate in which the American military presence was assailed as a vestige of colonialism and an affront to Philippine sovereignty.

The United States never increased its offer, but opened negotiations on a three-year phased withdrawal in the hope that the lease could be extended after a new government is elected in the Philippines in May.

The negotiations stumbled, officials said, over the United States' reluctance to commit itself to a firm schedule for removing troops and equipment and to guarantee that no nuclear weapons would pass through the base. Though President Bush has said that tactical nuclear weapons will be removed from surface warships, it is assumed that many of the ships that pass through the port are armed with them now.

But over the past month it has become clear in any case that the American military was reconciled to losing the base, and saw little use in dragging out the process. By the middle of 1993, most of the American personnel and much of the movable equipment would have been moved elsewhere, at a cost of billions of dollars, and sending them back would have probably proved prohibitively expensive.

"Once it begins, it is an irreversible process," a senior American official said today. "The bottom line is that we are gone."

President Corazon C. Aquino had vowed to find a way to keep the United States in place, even proposing a referendum on the issue after the Senate rejected the bases treaty. But Mrs. Aquino, who has indicated that she does not plan to seek re-election next year, eventually backed down in the face of adamant political opposition.

Money was not an issue in the impasse. In recent years, Washington has pledged a certain amount in economic, military and housing assistance instead of paying yearly rent for American bases. In the fiscal year that ended in September, the Philippines received $408 million in connection with the bases, and the Subic Bay base has pumped more than $344 million a year into the country's economy.

As the prospects of remaining in the Philippines have faded in recent months, Defense Department officials have scrambled to find alternatives. None of the proposed sites, including Singapore and Japan, two scheduled stops on the President's trip, seem to match Subic's advantages, which include huge deep-water facilities and access to the strategic waters of the South China Sea.

Subic, 50 miles west of Manila, is the last of six American bases that until recently housed 40,000 troops, dependents and civilian employees. Four others were returned to the Philippine Government this year. Clark Air Base, the other major American installation in the Philippines, was abandoned in June and eventually closed after it was buried in volcanic ash from the eruption of nearby Mount Pinatubo. Threat and Interest Wane

Both American and Philippine officials said today that the United States' willingness to retain the Subic base had waned in recent months, especially after the disintegration of the Soviet Union. "Global events overtook Subic and undermined its value," said Alan Ortiz, assistant director of the Philippine Government's National Security Council.

Franklin Drilon, one of Mrs. Aquino's top aides, said at a news conference in Manila that "the friendly and cordial relations between the United States and the Philippines will continue."

The closing of the base will mean relocating 5,800 officers and enlisted men and women, 600 civilians working for the Department of Defense and 5,000 to 6,000 military dependents. It will also be a major economic loss for the impoverished Philippines, which will lose the aid it receives annually for use of the base and the hundreds of millions of dollars in business generated by its presence.

About 20,000 Filipino workers are employed there, and the honky-tonk bars of Olongapo and Subic, the two cities that border the installation, are legendary among generations of sailors whose ships have pulled in to Subic's docks. Many predict that the cities will become neon ghost towns. Commitment to Asia Questioned

The withdrawal may also raise questions about the Bush Administration's assertion that the United States remains fully committed to Asia, a theme the President is expected to voice throughout his trip.

"Without the bases in the Philippines, I don't think there is any question that U.S. influence in Asia will decline," Masashi Nishihara, a professor at Japan's top military institute and an analyst of security policy in the Pacific, said today in a telephone interview from Tokyo.

"If events occur in the South China Sea -- a conflict between China and Taiwan, for example, or Hong Kong -- the United States may have very little ability to change events," he said. "As we learned in the Persian Gulf war, effective diplomacy has the backup of an effective military."

Singapore has already offered the United States access to ship-repair sites and says the United States can base some forces there. But the tiny island nation is too small to be of more than token use. The commander of the Pacific fleet, Adm. Charles R. Larson, said recently that he was talking with Malaysia and other nations, but that no site could match the advantages of Subic Bay, which included a plentiful and inexpensive work force.

"A lot of functions will be dispersed, and a lot will be returned to the United States," a senior American official in the Philippines said today. "And some will just disappear." Negotiators Exasperated

American officials seemed somewhat relieved that the long and often angry negotiations with the Philippines were over, and that the United States could quickly withdraw from its former military empire there. Negotiators have expressed exasperation with what they view as Mrs. Aquino's confused signals and ultimately ineffective leadership on the issue.

In the Philippine Senate, the move to eject United States forces seemed less a debate over the bases' value than a demonstration of sovereignty and national pride. The Philippines was essentially an American colony from 1898, when George Dewey sailed into Manila Bay to defeat the Spanish fleet, until 1946, when it became an independent republic.

Subic Bay, which began as a Spanish military garrison in the late 1860's, has always been a critical part of America's military operations in the Pacific. It is the main repair site for ships operating everywhere from Japan to the Indian Ocean, and marines have long been trained in jungle warfare in the wooded mountains near the base. It was the site of fierce battles with the Japanese during World War II, a staging area for naval operations during the Korean and Vietnam wars and a strategic counterpoint to Soviet forces in Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam.

But the vast American military presence has long been an irritant in the Philippines' uneasy relations with the United States. Resentment flared this year when Mrs. Aquino's Government finally negotiated the 10-year extension of the Subic Bay lease. Opposition was fierce in the Senate, where lawmakers asserted that the deal would perpetuate the country's image as an American lackey, though polls suggested that the Philippine people largely supported the treaty.

It is unclear whether nuclear weapons are stored at Subic. The United States, following its usual policy, will not say.


© 2016 The New York Times CompanySite MapPrivacyYour Ad ChoicesAdvertiseTerms of SaleTerms of ServiceWork With UsRSSHelpContact UsSite Feedback

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/28/world ... wanted=all

your point? The US left when they couldn't reach an agreement.
If you feel its a good topic you should start one on an another thread.