BURKINI

[jimmy]

[Finny]

No, not on the beaches of southern France. Yes, they were wearing islamic dress.

There weren't attacks on beaches, so what are you citing as justification? But, the "first" woman suicide bomber in France later turned out not to be a suicide bomber at all. At least, the reports leave it unclear. And, she was in a siege in a building, not on a beach.

That's right - I didn't say there were attacks on beaches, or that women were involved in them. Only that women had been perpetrators of islamic terrorism in France. I wasn't citing anything as justification.

it certainly does reflect common concern around muslim people failing to integrate into societies they migrate to.

In my personal experience, the Muslims I met in France were completely "integrated," if you mean culturally. They, however, were almost always "segregated" socially. That is, they all spoke French --in fact, if they came from a former colony, they tended to speak better French. Their biggest complaint was that, no matter what they did, it was hard to "integrate." Well, frankly, Jews weren't that "integrated" either, to many French people --although they were as culturally French as anyone else.

There's not doubt that there is a common concern about radicalization in France. However, it's almost always the perfectly integrated second or third generation Muslim who becomes radicalized. Immigration issues are certainly important, and it's understandable that the French --who have been hit so often-- will go to extreme measures to prevent further attacks and to stop radicalization. Restricting immigration may help somewhat. But, the young people who are becoming radicals aren't doing it because they're Muslims; they're French, or Belgian. They become radical Muslims.

Again, I didn't say muslim immigrants weren't integrated - but that there's a common concern in Europe that they haven't

I'd have thought the fact that it's a "second or third generation muslim who becomes radicalised" which indicates a clear lack of integration. IOW, if they had been 'perfectly integrated', they wouldn't have become radicalised.

Personally, I feel sorry for these women. As Jimmy has highlighted, western countries used to hold similar views around women. However, we've progressed to the point were women are treated with equality, and not forced to cover themselves.

No, we have not reached that point. Women are forced to cover themselves here. If they dress provocatively and get raped, they're often blamed. And, one is not liberating a woman by forcing her to take off clothing. Ever. She is only free is she decides to take it off on her own.

I disagree. Women are free to wear what they want. Victim blaming in the case of rape is not an accepted practice.

One is not liberating a woman by forcing her to take off clothing - I agree. Neither is one liberating a woman by forcing her to wear complete body covering.

It's a complex issue - the only point I was making is that the burka/hijab/niqab is not an islamic tradition, and many women who wear them don't want to, but the culture they live in believes it necessary. The only explanations I have heard have been offensive/insulting to both women and men.. and the wearing of these things might not be seen as a 'freedom' by many, in fact it's the exact opposite. I can understand a French majority saying 'not here'.

[Dajenarit]

I just gotta say. Anyone that cares what someone else puts in or on their own body is a bottomline asshole.

[Dajenarit]

Acceptance is the first step.

[wiesiek]

..." Women are free to wear what they want...".
but
another part of the humankind thinks differently.

French are free to ban burkini.
But
its against their own law and what worst -against the Force

Whole that jazz is very good for fabric and fashion industry.
. Next beach season - burkini can be super-duper-avantgarde wardrobe..

[KEND]

Re the Olympics, the swimmers may have become more conservative [or less frictional] but the track athletes have certainly stripped down to minimal

[Steve James]

That's right - I didn't say there were attacks on beaches, or that women were involved in them.

The issue is what women are wearing on beaches. There has been one alleged woman accused of being a suicide bomber. My point was that the beach laws have nothing to do with terrorism.

Again, I didn't say muslim immigrants weren't integrated - but that there's a common concern in Europe that they haven't

I made it clear that what you probably mean by "integration" is not cultural. It's not that they aren't French or speak French or consider themselves culturally French. Otoh, they are not socially "integrated," just as you point out. It is very difficult to live in France and not speak, read and write French.

One is not liberating a woman by forcing her to take off clothing - I agree. Neither is one liberating a woman by forcing her to wear complete body covering.

That's nonsense above because it's silly to fight oppression with oppression. And, you cannot possibly judge for a woman whether she is wearing a garment because she wants to or because she is being forced to. Clearly, in France, a woman can wear a bikini if she wants to. When Daesh/IS was driven out of Mosul, iirc, the women there tore off their burkhas because they could.

Women in the US cannot go totally nude on the beach. Does that mean they're oppressed. Many women in the US would argue that they definitely are not equal, and it's only up to them to say so. Some would say that being expected to wear a bikini (or simply to expose more skin) is oppressive. Some women simply want to be modest and not be sexualized.

Not allowing choice is always oppressive to some extent.

Re the Olympics, the swimmers may have become more conservative [or less frictional] but the track athletes have certainly stripped down to minimal

[/quote]

This issue has nothing to do with aero or fluid dynamics. It'd even make sense if they said that the burkhini wearer was more difficult to rescue, or had a higher percentage of drowning, or that more sun were good for the skin. It doesn't address terrorism or prevent it. It clearly makes Muslims feel un-integrated (though obviously the French could reserve a part of the beach for burkhini wearers and nuns).

But, yeah, I get that it's about fear of Muslims and radicalization and that the burkhini symbolizes those fears. Forcing women to take off their hijabs and burkhinis is easy. I doubt it will have any effect on radicalization. Radicals simply won't go to the beach. It is also, imo, a demonstration of revenge and spite; but, that's what can't be admitted. It's petty, small-minded, and cruel. Did you see the picture of the French police standing around a woman and forcing her to take off her burkhini on the beach?

Sorry, I can't change the way I think about things based on who I'm talking about. So, for me, showing skin is not always a matter of liberation or even a good thing.

[Finny]

That's right - I didn't say there were attacks on beaches, or that women were involved in them.

The issue is what women are wearing on beaches. There has been one alleged woman accused of being a suicide bomber. My point was that the beach laws have nothing to do with terrorism.

I got that - my point was unrelated.

Again, I didn't say muslim immigrants weren't integrated - but that there's a common concern in Europe that they haven't

I made it clear that what you probably mean by "integration" is not cultural. It's not that they aren't French or speak French or consider themselves culturally French. Otoh, they are not socially "integrated," just as you point out. It is very difficult to live in France and not speak, read and write French.

Not socially integrated is not integrated; exactly.

One is not liberating a woman by forcing her to take off clothing - I agree. Neither is one liberating a woman by forcing her to wear complete body covering.

That's nonsense above because it's silly to fight oppression with oppression. And, you cannot possibly judge for a woman whether she is wearing a garment because she wants to or because she is being forced to. Clearly, in France, a woman can wear a bikini if she wants to. When Daesh/IS was driven out of Mosul, iirc, the women there tore off their burkhas because they could.

Women in the US cannot go totally nude on the beach. Does that mean they're oppressed. Many women in the US would argue that they definitely are not equal, and it's only up to them to say so. Some would say that being expected to wear a bikini (or simply to expose more skin) is oppressive. Some women simply want to be modest and not be sexualized.

Not allowing choice is always oppressive to some extent.

Absolutely. As i said, I'm not sure I agree with it as a public policy; in fact I'd probably oppose it if something similar was proposed here.

[windwalker]

Aqsa Parvez’s Muslim father choked her to death with her hijab after she refused to wear it. Amina Muse Ali was a Christian woman in Somalia whom Muslims murdered because she wasn’t wearing a hijab. Forty women were murdered in Iraq in 2007 for not wearing the hijab.

There's an endless list of similar cases. Robert P. George might want to examine the religious freedom he is really defending.

A survey conducted in France in May 2003 found that 77 percent of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups.

We can't dismiss a number that large as the work of a handful of extremists. And this isn't taking place in some Third World country. It's happening in France.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/21813 ... greenfield

[Steve James]

Not socially integrated from the perspective of being considered French. It is not that they don't want to integrate. They speak the language, dress like the French. Social integration requires acceptance by the society. In Paris, that is hard. At any rate, forcing women to undress is a perverse idea of liberation. Make a law making it illegal to tell women what to wear.

[Dajenarit]

What epic morons these modern politicians are today. On top having deplorable policies they're too stupid these days to know how to sell those shit ideas.

Thank god for that on second thought... Is it me or did politicians back in the day have atleast a veneer of intelligence, competence and subtlety even if they didn't really? Ay dios mio.... smfh..

They're sure trying their damndest and succeeding in creating a clash of civilizations vibe with Muslims. He's inadvertently made it sound like the French government is basically doing all of this to catch peeks at Muslim women. Just mind boggling.....


French PM suggests naked breasts represent France better than a headscarf

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ni-ban-row

The French prime minister has drawn criticism for suggesting that naked breasts are more representative of France than a headscarf, in the latest flare-up of the bitter political row over the burkini.

Manuel Valls, who clashed with France’s education minister over his support for mayors who have banned full-body swimsuits from beaches, gave a rousing speech on Monday night in which he hailed the bare breasts of Marianne, a national symbol of the French Republic.

“Marianne has a naked breast because she is feeding the people! She is not veiled, because she is free! That is the republic!” he thundered at a government rally.

The inference that bare breasts were a symbol of France while the Muslim headscarf was problematic sparked scorn from politicians and derision from historians and feminists.

Mathilde Larrere, a historian of the French revolution and French citizenship, tweeted: “Marianne has a naked breast because it’s an allegory, you cretin!” She then explained in a long series of tweets that images of Marianne with a naked breast harked back to classical allusions.

Other historians questioned Valls’ grasp of French republican history. The figure of Marianne officially became a symbol of the French Republic in 1848, after the fall of the monarchy. Her image is still featured throughout the French public service and on official documents, as well as on stamps. Statues of Marianne adorn town halls.

The historian Nicolas Lebourg told French newspaper Libération that Valls appeared to have confused Marianne with the earlier 1830 Delacroix painting of Liberty Leading the People, where the figure has her breasts uncovered.

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Many pointed out that Marianne typically has her head covered with a Phrygian cap, a soft, felt hat that symbolised freedom and the revolution. She has been portrayed in different ways, either with breasts uncovered or fully covered.

The former Green party minister Cécile Duflot said Valls’ praise of Marianne’s bare breasts gave an indication of the lamentable view of women held by some male French politicians.

The UN has called on French beach resorts to lift their bans on the burkini, labelling them a “stupid reaction” that did not improve security but fuelled religious intolerance and the stigmatisation of Muslims, especially women.

The UN human rights office welcomed a decision last week by France’s highest administrative court to suspend one of the burkini bans, ruling it “manifestly illegal”. This decision is likely to set a legal precedent. But most of the mayors who have banned burkinis are still refusing to withdraw the restrictions and four face further legal action from rights groups this week.

There has been additional controversy over the setting up of a state body, the Foundation of French Islam, aimed at better organising the religion in France and integrating the country’s Muslim population.

The choice of the former defence minister Jean-Pierre Chevènement to head the foundation left many observers asking why a Muslim was not given the role.

Comments by Chevènement this week, in which he appeared to suggest that there were no French people left in Saint-Denis, a northern suburb of Paris, prompted the local Socialist MP, Mathieu Hanotin, to start a petition demanding that his appointment be blocked.

Hanotin said Chevènement had displayed “an unbearable racist rhetoric” and “crossed a red line”.

[wiesiek]

YES!
Let`s breasts be free!

[windwalker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVoX30ad8c

[windwalker]

Burkini ban is ILLEGAL, French court sensationally rules as debate over the controversial Muslim swimsuit sparks ...
The Sun‎ - 2 days ago. THE controversial burkini ban on the French Riviera has been ruled ... in Marseille – the swimsuit was outlawed over fears of extreme Islam.

I can understand where the French are coming from but I think they went overboard. Personally I don't particularly like people wearing special clothing to distinguish themselves for religious or cultural reasons, whether they are Muslims, Jews,Asian etc but living in a secular society I have to go along with it freedom of expression, as long as it doesn't contain a hate content, for example the Klan,its OK with me . The French feel that citizens should be 'french' and follow certain guidelines. In the USA and UK a multicultural approach is favored, this works well except when a group forms an enclave that takes advantage of the host country but does not conform to what is considered cultural norms, demanding their own laws, continuation of destructive customs ['honor killings, genital mutilation etc] in which case the host country would be justified in punishing them according to the laws of the land, or sending them back to their original country. I believe in live and let live but not bending over backwards to please immigrants who are inflexible and have no intention of honoring an implied social contract

The main point is this: a Muslim living in Europe should not expect to be able to live as he would in a Muslim country. Muslims who have settled on European soil have constantly to be reminded that they are not in Dar al-Islam but, rather, in the land of the Infidels where, even their own sacred texts tell them, they should keep a low profile. If the Muslims living in Europe come to feel that they are living in Dar al-Islam, that will mean the end of Europe.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/08/hugh ... dhimmitude

Harouel, a professor emeritus of the History of Law at the University of Paris, criticizes the members of the Conseil d’Etat for their decision, which he says reflects their failure to take into account the difficult period that France is now going through. In the present circumstances, writes Harouel, the “jurisprudential liberalism”’ that might have been acceptable in relatively peaceful times can no longer be justified, given what France is enduring.

[Steve James]

The green colored states are those where top freedom is in effect.
The orange colored ones have amibiguous state laws on the matter.
The red colored ones are the ones where the mere showing of the female breast in public is illegal according to state law.

FREE the women of Utah, Tennessee and Indiana! And, hopefully the bottomless laws will be dropped soon too. Then again, "there doesn't seem to be any outrage about" ...

or



F-that. Let those titties be free, especially in America.