BURKINI

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BURKINI

Postby KEND on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:46 am

Burkini ban is ILLEGAL, French court sensationally rules as debate over the controversial Muslim swimsuit sparks ...
The Sun‎ - 2 days ago. THE controversial burkini ban on the French Riviera has been ruled ... in Marseille – the swimsuit was outlawed over fears of extreme Islam.

I can understand where the French are coming from but I think they went overboard. Personally I don't particularly like people wearing special clothing to distinguish themselves for religious or cultural reasons, whether they are Muslims, Jews,Asian etc but living in a secular society I have to go along with it freedom of expression, as long as it doesn't contain a hate content, for example the Klan,its OK with me . The French feel that citizens should be 'french' and follow certain guidelines. In the USA and UK a multicultural approach is favored, this works well except when a group forms an enclave that takes advantage of the host country but does not conform to what is considered cultural norms, demanding their own laws, continuation of destructive customs ['honor killings, genital mutilation etc] in which case the host country would be justified in punishing them according to the laws of the land, or sending them back to their original country. I believe in live and let live but not bending over backwards to please immigrants who are inflexible and have no intention of honoring an implied social contract
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Bao on Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:37 am

I don't think that americans would appreciate the french police in the US...

:P

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Re: BURKINI

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:42 pm

The deputy mayor of Nice said that both habits and burkinis were banned on local beaches in an interview yesterday on Radio 4

The deputy mayor of Nice has said that nuns wearing habits are no more welcome on his beaches than women wearing burkinis.

Speaking to presenter Edward Stourton on the World at One on BBC Radio 4 yesterday, the Deputy Mayor, Rudy Salles defended the burkini ban and said: “What is the burkini? There is bikini and there is burka and the burka is forbidden. When you go to the beach you wear a bathing suit. You don’t go to the beach as you want. If I want to go on the beach naked it’s forbidden-I cannot.

“So if you want to go to the beach in a burkini it’s forbidden because it is a provocation. Religion and the state are completely separated. Religion is the affair of each one but each one at home, each one at church, not each one in the street.”

When Edward Stourton asked him: “What about a Catholic nun. Would she be allowed to appear on the beach wearing her habit?”

The deputy mayor replied: “No. The same.”

Yesterday, the council of state, France’s highest administrative court, examined an appeal by the French Human Rights League to scrap the burkini bans.

The row has escalated since pictures emerged this week of a woman wearing a burkini on a Nice beach being approached and surrounded by the police.

Nice’s deputy mayor said the removal of burkinis was a “necessity” after the terrorist attack last month.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/20 ... of-cannes/
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Re: BURKINI

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:23 pm

KEND wrote:Burkini ban is ILLEGAL, French court sensationally rules as debate over the controversial Muslim swimsuit sparks ...
The Sun‎ - 2 days ago. THE controversial burkini ban on the French Riviera has been ruled ... in Marseille – the swimsuit was outlawed over fears of extreme Islam.

I can understand where the French are coming from but I think they went overboard. Personally I don't particularly like people wearing special clothing to distinguish themselves for religious or cultural reasons, whether they are Muslims, Jews,Asian etc but living in a secular society I have to go along with it freedom of expression, as long as it doesn't contain a hate content, for example the Klan,its OK with me . The French feel that citizens should be 'french' and follow certain guidelines. In the USA and UK a multicultural approach is favored, this works well except when a group forms an enclave that takes advantage of the host country but does not conform to what is considered cultural norms, demanding their own laws, continuation of destructive customs ['honor killings, genital mutilation etc] in which case the host country would be justified in punishing them according to the laws of the land, or sending them back to their original country. I believe in live and let live but not bending over backwards to please immigrants who are inflexible and have no intention of honoring an implied social contract



I wonder if they are required to learn and speak French.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby mixjourneyman on Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:46 pm

The thing that troubles me from several angles is this:

Limiting freedom of expression in this way is bad for native French nationals and immigrants alike. Freedom of expression should be allowed to as high a degree as possible without including uttering of threats. America has always done a good job of protecting dangerous speech and social criticism, I think this is a failure of europe. Consider that Muslim women being able to go the beach should be considered as an equal right to all French, and the idea that one could control cultural aggression via suppression of freedoms is just silly. How can muslim people integrate into European society if they are always being treated as second class citizens and potential murderers?
I think if history teaches us anything about cultural conflict it is that you either have to accept your enemy or destroy them completely, there is no half way. If you shame them, they will rebel even more.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:06 pm

Whatever the given reason, it doesn't affect terrorism at all. It's directed at women, who haven't been the perpetrators in France. It can't stop a Muslim man with a picnic basket bomb, or people who attack from a boat.

The argument about culture, in general, is false, if it's simply a matter of clothing. All female Olympic swimmers wear body suits, not bikinis. Swimwear has changed over the years anyway. At one time, the bikini was frowned upon. But, that raises the other 'cultural' issue: i.e., that the burkhini just changes the look of the beach.

That is true, notwithstanding why that particular look is disliked. After all, the argument given by some of the mayors is that the rule applies to Catholic nuns, too. It can't be because they're threats, and it can't be because of their religion. And, if it is disliked because it is a demonstration of religion, then does it apply to wearing crucifixes or yarmulkes --at the beach? If it's disliked there, does it apply everywhere? What's special about beaches?

Of course, if the upshot is that Muslim women wear bikinis, then they'll still be there.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Finny on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:08 pm

mixjourneyman wrote:
How can muslim people integrate into European society if they are always being treated as second class citizens and potential murderers?



How can muslim people integrate into European society if the very "religious" (I use quotation marks because, AFAIK, the hijab/burka is a kurdish tribal custom imported into islam by the wahabbi saudis, and actually has nothing to do with islam) ideas they adhere to by definition resist the concept?

The entire premise of the ban is that, in France people don't wear burkas. If you move to France, they don't want you wearing burkas. So either don't move there, or do so and (actually) integrate.. by not wearing fundamentalist islamic clothing.

I'm not sure I agree with it as a policy, but also consider that everything about human interactions/relationships naturally involves some degree of reciprocity - as you've noted yourself, if you treat people poorly, they'll treat you poorly in return.

So how free are people to go to the beach in G-Strings (or habits?!?) in muslim countries? Is there outrage over that in the west, or do we figure 'hey it's their country, respect their culture!'. I'd say that's the overwhelming tone of rhetoric in media. Yet there is none of the same afforded the French.

And Steve, FWIW, women absolutely have been perpetrators of islamic terrorism in France.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:24 pm

Finny wrote:
mixjourneyman wrote:
How can muslim people integrate into European society if they are always being treated as second class citizens and potential murderers?



How can muslim people integrate into European society if the very "religious" (I use quotation marks because, AFAIK, the hijab/burka is a kurdish tribal custom imported into islam by the wahabbi saudis, and actually has nothing to do with islam) ideas they adhere to by definition resist the concept?

The entire premise of the ban is that, in France people don't wear burkas. If you move to France, they don't want you wearing burkas. So either don't move there, or do so and (actually) integrate.. by not wearing fundamentalist islamic clothing.

I'm not sure I agree with it as a policy, but also consider that everything about human interactions/relationships naturally involves some degree of reciprocity - as you've noted yourself, if you treat people poorly, they'll treat you poorly in return.

So how free are people to go to the beach in G-Strings (or habits?!?) in muslim countries? Is there outrage over that in the west, or do we figure 'hey it's their country, respect their culture!'. I'd say that's the overwhelming tone of rhetoric in media. Yet there is none of the same afforded the French.

And Steve, FWIW, women absolutely have been perpetrators of islamic terrorism in France.


+1 ;)

Veils and burqas are becoming more common in Muslim countries with the resurgence of Islamic fundamentalism. In the West, they are gradually becoming a chic statement of political protest or a symbol of religious distinction.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/page ... veils.aspx


My mother is European but my father is Algerian (African/Arab). Algeria, is where I would spend my summer.

In muslim countries, there are usually Women-Only swimming pools; thus meaning that muslim women can wear whatever they want.

However, going to the beach is completely different because most women in muslim countries wear the full covering from head to toe (the face veil in some cases).This may sound strange but they would go in the water exactly how they came to the beach.


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We'er not in Kanses any more toto
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:31 pm

And Steve, FWIW, women absolutely have been perpetrators of islamic terrorism in France.


On the beaches of southern France? Were they wearing Islamic dress?

And, the burkhini isn't a burkha at all. It's a bathing suit, and I don't think they'd be allowed on Afghan beaches.

Afa the argument that, for ex., since Christians aren't allowed to wear crosses in Saudi Arabia, etc., or wear bikinis, why should Muslims be able to wear their traditional clothing in France? Well, at base, that just seems like spite, not an actual reason. Christians wear bikinis in Turkey, Egypt and Morocco, and so do Muslim women.

In the end, this is a law about a piece of clothing and controlling what women wear. If they decide to wear something else that can be identified in any way, that piece of clothing will be considered illegal. Sure, they have a right to make a clothing law. The fears in France are understandable. When I lived there, the law was passed about wearing the hijab --that was in the 90s. It didn't lead to less of anything either.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby jimmy on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:33 pm

motherfuck these self-righteous, ethnocentric assholes wrote:ImageImage
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:36 pm

windwalker wrote:
Image

Where'er not in Kanses any more toto


Hmm, did you notice in that picture that even the men are fully dressed? Anyway,

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Re: BURKINI

Postby Finny on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:50 pm

Steve James wrote:
And Steve, FWIW, women absolutely have been perpetrators of islamic terrorism in France.


On the beaches of southern France? Were they wearing Islamic dress?

And, the burkhini isn't a burkha at all. It's a bathing suit, and I don't think they'd be allowed on Afghan beaches.


No, not on the beaches of southern France. Yes, they were wearing islamic dress.


Steve James wrote:Afa the argument that, for ex., since Christians aren't allowed to wear crosses in Saudi Arabia, etc., or wear bikinis, why should Muslims be able to wear their traditional clothing in France? Well, at base, that just seems like spite, not an actual reason. Christians wear bikinis in Turkey, Egypt and Morocco, and so do Muslim women.


I agree, and as I said, that argument certainly does involve some sense of spite (I used the term reciprocity).

Steve James wrote:In the end, this is a law about a piece of clothing and controlling what women wear. If they decide to wear something else that can be identified in any way, that piece of clothing will be considered illegal. Sure, they have a right to make a clothing law. The fears in France are understandable. When I lived there, the law was passed about wearing the hijab --that was in the 90s. It didn't lead to less of anything either.


Clearly. As i said I'm not sure I agree with it as a policy designed to effect social change. But it certainly does reflect common concern around muslim people failing to integrate into societies they migrate to. The burkini is by definition an article of clothing associated with fundamentalist islam, which many these days view as an offensive, combative religion. Beyond the association with terrorism, I find it reprehensible in that the hijab/burka/burkini is horribly insulting - not only to the women who wear them who are seen as so weak and powerless that they require that covering to protect themselves, but also to men in their societies, who are seen as so depraved and uncontrolled that they would certainly rape and pillage if they caught sight of some flesh.

Beyond that.. it seems really bizarre to me that women (I see, in my country) wear hijabs that are explained as reducing the 'feminine' qualities of the women who wear them, in order that the men around them can function without flying into a raping frenzy... but then these women wear more makeup than most.

Then too - if the hijab/burka/niqab has nothing to do with islam, why should it be respected or allowed? Would we allow a certain group of peoples to migrate and walk their women around in dog collars, because they said it was an essential aspect of their religion? or would we insist that nope, that's not a dynamic we can accept or encourage?

Personally, I feel sorry for these women. As Jimmy has highlighted, western countries used to hold similar views around women. However, we've progressed to the point were women are treated with equality, and not forced to cover themselves.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby windwalker on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:22 pm

The Real Reasons Why the Swiss Voted to Ban Minarets

The surprising vote reveals rather a growing unease in Switzerland, which traditionally has been one of the most open and most tolerant countries of the continent: Many Swiss are worried about the rise of political Islam and religious rules in Europe that are threatening hard-won rights such as equal rights for women and men, the secular rule of law above religion or the right of each individual to decide for him — or herself.

A majority of Swiss voters obviously feels that there are problems with Muslim integration into civil society at the moment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-am ... 73947.html

The same problem with the same conclusions.
An ideology masked as a religion. In free societies they have no real to approach it
not understanding the nature of the problem.

This is starting to change.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:27 pm

No, not on the beaches of southern France. Yes, they were wearing islamic dress.


There weren't attacks on beaches, so what are you citing as justification? But, the "first" woman suicide bomber in France later turned out not to be a suicide bomber at all. At least, the reports leave it unclear. And, she was in a siege in a building, not on a beach.

it certainly does reflect common concern around muslim people failing to integrate into societies they migrate to.


In my personal experience, the Muslims I met in France were completely "integrated," if you mean culturally. They, however, were almost always "segregated" socially. That is, they all spoke French --in fact, if they came from a former colony, they tended to speak better French. Their biggest complaint was that, no matter what they did, it was hard to "integrate." Well, frankly, Jews weren't that "integrated" either, to many French people --although they were as culturally French as anyone else.

There's not doubt that there is a common concern about radicalization in France. However, it's almost always the perfectly integrated second or third generation Muslim who becomes radicalized. Immigration issues are certainly important, and it's understandable that the French --who have been hit so often-- will go to extreme measures to prevent further attacks and to stop radicalization. Restricting immigration may help somewhat. But, the young people who are becoming radicals aren't doing it because they're Muslims; they're French, or Belgian. They become radical Muslims.

Personally, I feel sorry for these women. As Jimmy has highlighted, western countries used to hold similar views around women. However, we've progressed to the point were women are treated with equality, and not forced to cover themselves.


No, we have not reached that point. Women are forced to cover themselves here. If they dress provocatively and get raped, they're often blamed. And, one is not liberating a woman by forcing her to take off clothing. Ever. She is only free is she decides to take it off on her own.
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Re: BURKINI

Postby Steve James on Sun Aug 28, 2016 6:29 pm

Btw, as soon as people start arguing about the "religion," it's not about clothing anymore. It is about them, and nothing they wear will change that. So, it's pointless to address.
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