easier, slower version of some movement (non MA)

[everything]

let's just say it's a golf swing you're working on but it could be anything. say, cutting vegetables in expert fashion.

if you work on it in slower motion, it should help. why does this work? what are the limits of this approach? how much can you do this without doing the full speed motion? what's wrong with going easier and slower as a learning method?

obviously we could talk about taijiquan but please talk about this more generally (hence I posted in OTT). I know we've covered this 1,000 times, but it's time for me to hear some thoughts here again.

[origami_itto]

The example I use to explain it to people is spinning your fingers.

Put both hands in front of you, index fingers extended and touching each other but the rest clenched loosely.

Now move them in circles opposite each other. (one finger moving towards you while the other moves away, moving up and down simultaneously)

Most people can't just start right off and get it. They have never considered that kind of movement, much less attempted it, so their brain lacks the neural connections that make it work smoothly and efficiently.

However, you can square the movement and slow it down and train the connections. Break it into four distinct, linear movements.

1. From fingers touching, move one hand toward your chest and the other away from the chest.
2. Move both hands down the same distance.
3. Move the further hand towards your chest and the closer hand away from the chest (swap distances)
4. Move both hands up the same distance
5. Repeat

It should start off feeling clumsy, then start to feel smooth, at which point you can start to speed it up a little till it's comfortable, then you can forget about the steps and execute it as one fluid movement on demand.

In general the slowness does two things.
1: Trains specific neural connections to make new movement patterns feel smooth and natural
2: Trains strength throughout the entire movement in ways that are hidden by inertia and momentum when moving fast. It "fills" the movement with strength.

The limitations to the method are only really a matter of degree. I was considering something like rope dart training as being exempt, but even that is best served by staying as slow as possible as long as possible to build smooth, consistent strength.

[Bao]

if you work on it in slower motion, it should help. why does this work? what are the limits of this approach? how much can you do this without doing the full speed motion? what's wrong with going easier and slower as a learning method?

I am not sure about what's your point about doing things slow. Why should you do what slow? Reason and purpose? Chinese painters usually say that slow movements are healthy and make you live longer. But I guess what you just mean practicing to do things better?

For me personally, I appreciate awareness and calmness more than physical slow movements, or slowing down the mind. As my own experience of running techniques, if you really relax the body and breath slower and deeper, the body takes up more oxygen and you will get less tired, but at the same time you'll be able to run longer and faster. So you'll feel that your mind is slowing down while your body speeds up. I think you can translate this into many different things in life. Calmness, relaxing, breathing will help you to do things faster while having more control. So slowing things down in general should, IMO, first be something that happens in your mind. Even if you are trying to do things physically slower, the mind should be there first. But of course, you can also use breath and slow movement to calm down and slow down your mind.

This guy says that everything you do slow, you can do fast. He has quite a lot to say that makes sense from an IMA perspective:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_tQk25pR60

[everything]

Ok thanks. Basically I want to learn some new movements that I cannot do fast yet. Then, I want to practice slowly so I can train more often without tiring.

Wonder how much I can do this. And is the benefit limitless? With of course some full speed training. How much is too much?

[origami_itto]

I'd call it more quality than quantity dependant.
Slow and empty gets you nothing. Slow with intention is everything.

[warriorprincess]

Check out Feldenkrais

http://openatm.org/recordings.html

[everything]

I only mean doing things slowly as a training method to improve something that will be done at full speed. Also, because it's not practical or possible to train at full speed as much. From experience it's easy to say this method works. Indeed in some sense it's unavoidable. You can't really cut vegetables super fast like an experienced chef at first, or ski downhill as fast as an Olympian. In some ways the brain has more space to process so you can go through stages of 1. unconscious incompetence 2. conscious incompetence 3. conscious competence (still a bit slow because you're brain is in the way) 4. unconscious competence (so fast you don't have time for the conscious level of thought; you just do it). But once you're at 4, is there any use for going slow? And what % of your actual training should be done in this way? For example, would Michael Phelps benefit (for an event in which literally you want to be the fastest in the entire world)? Does he?

[origami_itto]

Ask Rickson Gracie


Why would you abandon the methods you used to get to your peak. You'll never be perfect, will always have something to improve upon. There is always some part of your movement that could use some improvement or correction. If not, then what's the point of studying?

[everything]

I don't think we or anyone here disputes there is value in doing the slower movements, at least for learning phases. What I'm wondering about is if we can get to some rough formula like:
- spend 80% of your time on the slow training
- spend 20% of your time on the real-time.

In some sense, that's a breakdown for judo training. Relatively little time is spent in randori (kind of free play push hands), even less in shiai (tournaments). Most time is spent in kata and fundamentals.

But there should be some data on more widely done activities. For example, anecdotally, in 2011, this article claims Phelps was training 5-6 hours per day and most of that time was with "full effort" (which I could interpret to mean full-speed). That would probably say 90% of his training is full-speed.

This was supposedly Usain Bolt's supplementary routine in 2013 which doesn't address the speed question:
http://www.menshealth.co.uk/fitness/car ... ed-workout

Since these men are the 2 fastest humans on the planet (ever, as far as we know from records) in swimming and running, respectively, they are outliers and probably their routines do not really answer the above question. There isn't much point to learn at below level 4 (unconscious competence) when whatever you are doing already makes you the world's fastest by a good margin.

Does their lesson apply to everyone else? A beginner golfer or motorcyclist or skier should go slower at first. What happens when you are intermediate level? No longer a beginner but definitely not world-class.