everyone should live in china at least once

[windwalker]

If you are not Chinese how do you know this

[Bao]

If you are not Chinese how do you know this

... No I don't. Not by personal experience. But I experience it on distance through my wife and her family and their everyday struggle. And also I hear so many stories about ordinary people in China that I shut down and try not to listen to it. 8 year old children with cancer telling their parents that they don't need to pay their expensive medicines and are willing to die. Retired people throwing themselves out of high hospital buildings because they can't pay for their treatment anymore. A woman throwing her husband's one year old child down a plattform in Beijing airport. So many sad stories.


http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/201 ... family.cnn

[windwalker]

No I don't. Not by personal experience. But I experience it on distance through my wife and her family and their everyday struggle.

You post makes no sense considering

The problem, as I see it, is not personal reference, but the fact that as a foreigner, you'll probably never experience China as a Chinese does. So people are mostly fooling themselves if they believe they have a knowledge about China. You can study or work in China for several years without really experience China behind the curtains.

Your only qualifier seems to be the fact that your wife is Chinese, which I and some others could also use.
Maybe you're the one being fooled thinking you know and others do not. In China, unless one is Chinese they
will always be the laowai. China, is kinda strange in that no matter where one is from if one is ethnic Chinese
China will still consider them as one of their own. Which can be a good or bad thing.


How would any non ethnic Chinese know how a Chinese person experiences China.
I do understand that there are some points that I will never truly understand but
am heartened by those that I know who say my own thinking reflects much of their same thoughts
on different things.

I would still suggest for those studying culturally related practices no matter what they are,
it's always a good idea to go to the place where the practices originated from.

[Bao]

Maybe you're the one being fooled thinking you know and others do not.

I've never claimed that I understand China. I said:

The problem, as I see it, is not personal reference, but the fact that as a foreigner, you'll probably never experience China as a Chinese does. So people are mostly fooling themselves if they believe they have a knowledge about China.

I include myself in this. I never said that I know and others don't. I meant that it's very hard to understand China because you'll probably never have to deal with China from Chinese people's POV. I also said that I can only understand it so to say "second hand". Some people having families in China understand China better than me. Some other people are very separated from their other half's Chinese origin, so maybe they understand it less? My point was only that if you work or study in China, you'll get benefits and have a much more easy life. Of course this would have an impact on the outlook and the understanding of Chinese society. It's hard to say exactly how, but most of people I know who only studied a few years or worked in isolated western companies seem to have a very limited knowledge about Chinese people's everyday struggles. Maybe other people will have different experience about foreigners in China? Maybe some of things I think I know have changed? I can only try to speak from my own personal experience meeting different kinds people who lived in China for shorter or longer time. I am not trying to convince anyone that my own personal outlook should be a truth for others.

[windwalker]

just wondered

In this aspect I can say that they do seem to have a different perspective on things.
I once asked a question of my teachers grandson regarding his grandfathers taiji style and was told
“Your question is a very western way of thinking” he went on to explain how the Chinese
viewed such things. It really brought home to me that things can be looked at in very different ways.

[Michael]

Most people who go to China just want to live in China as a foreigner or as a tourist and have all the benefits as a foreigner. Then it's fun of course. Being a Chinese in China is truly like living in another world.

The vacation mindset or honeymoon phase of life in mainland China ends as soon as you're forced to see reality and its consequences on your or your family's health, which happens if you marry a local and have kids. If you brought kids to China from the West, you're just beyond hopeless, not knowing the core malevolence of a communist country and bringing kids here, but people do it.

Besides all the things Bao mentioned, there are serious criminal dangers here that most expats don't see because of the vacation mindset and also because they are not worthy targets for the criminality. Let them get a few hundred thousand RMB in the bank, maybe try and start a business, or begin to move in Chinese social circles of any significance, and like one long-term expat said, you're just one stalker away from catastophe, and that's just the neurotic stalkers or weirdo acquaintances who think they can scam something off you and get pissed when you say no.

The expats who seem the most disillusioned are those who got married to a local in the vacation mindset without understanding any of the above. Once they have kids and begin to experience some of the things Bao mentioned, they may not have a sufficient career path to move their family out of China and are sort of stuck here. Know a guy like that, describes himself as enslaved to a school owner who provides him a work visa. He could stay here on a marriage visa, but there are complications.

[Trick]

The problem, as I see it, is not personal reference, but the fact that as a foreigner, you'll probably never experience China as a Chinese does. So people are mostly fooling themselves if they believe they have a knowledge about China. You can study or work in China for several years without really experience China behind the curtains. As a foreigner, you will always have the best healthcare, the best work conditions, as well as different treatment. You will never experience the complicated relationships with parents and siblings. You'll never encounter the everyday corruption, have to deal with Chinese authorities etc, etc, etc...

Most people who go to China just want to live in China as a foreigner or as a tourist and have all the benefits as a foreigner. Then it's fun of course. Being a Chinese in China is truly like living in another world.[/quote]
After now have been living here in China for about 12 years( time goes by quick) i do not have access to some exclusive health care, well ok through my wifes connections i might get in fron in the cue if have some hospital issues. i do my own business so work contitions are sometimes up and other times not so up. Now, i'm nothing special, but i have always had the way(unwillingly) of knowing people from all sides of society and that came to be here in China too, so dealing with authorities(both govetnmental and other shady groups) corruption both high and low have been around. My wife is Chinese, and married to a Chinese you are married to most of the family so all kind of family issues are around..............But yes a foreigner that work in China for a big European/US company do have many comfortable benefits. What i'm saying is that there are definitely foreigners here that experience China. / Rick

[Trick]

If you are not Chinese how do you know this

... No I don't. Not by personal experience. But I experience it on distance through my wife and her family and their everyday struggle. And also I hear so many stories about ordinary people in China that I shut down and try not to listen to it. 8 year old children with cancer telling their parents that they don't need to pay their expensive medicines and are willing to die. Retired people throwing themselves out of high hospital buildings because they can't pay for their treatment anymore. A woman throwing her husband's one year old child down a plattform in Beijing airport. So many sad stories.


http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/201 ... family.cnn

Ok, i did not read that post, The above examples are extremes, not part of everyday Chinese lifes.

[Bao]

"The above examples are extremes, not part of everyday Chinese lifes."

Sure they are.

...I was walking a normal street close to an apartment store. I was very close to fall into a manhole. The lid was gone and there was just a round hole straight down. I could probably see 20 meters down. No warning signs, nothing, just a hole in the middle of the pavement. ...

[Michael]

"The above examples are extremes, not part of everyday Chinese lifes."

Sure they are.

...I was walking a normal street close to an apartment store. I was very close to fall into a manhole. The lid was gone and there was just a round hole straight down. I could probably see 20 meters down. No warning signs, nothing, just a hole in the middle of the pavement. ...

20 meter drop is extra deep, but I see missing manhole covers every day riding my bicycle in Guangzhou. There are less now than 8 years ago, but still quite a few. Dodging them is part of free ninja training.

This is not terribly uncommon. I once experienced a sidewalk eruption from a water pipe, luckily it was not the return water, but the new water.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_B1PkgA3kA

[MaartenSFS]

I think it's quite ridiculous what some of you think about China. China is not some fucking fairy tale. It's a very extreme country. I've been living here for almost ten years and poor for the entire duration. I've been lucky, honestly, that nothing bad has happened to me (except when I was bitten by a viper and almost died or my scheming ex-wife cleaning me out and taking my child away or getting scammed by schools).

It's utter bullshit that foreigners can never understand China or experience China. I hardly have any Chinese friends not because I don't understand them or because I'm a foreigner but because I choose not to be a part of a society where everyone is constantly trying to use each other to climb a little higher up the social ladder and would do anything to get there. And because most are boring people with no hopes or dreams beyond buying more things to appease their and their extended family's face. I am really looking forward to leaving China and an uncomplicated life where everyone isn't trying to stab each other in the back over and over and over again with a smile on their face.

Also, Chinese people are just as, if not more delusional about martial arts (and most other things). People that know what they are talking about are the extreme minority here! I was able to find a real master after YEARS of hard work and determination, of living in fucking miserable conditions. It made me grow as a person and I'm getting ready to move on. I've enjoyed and hated my time in China. It's that kind of place. My photos should prove that I've seen a lot of beauty, but fuck me there is so much ugly here - so much pure evil. Any foreigner that has lived in China for several years and can speak the language and doesn't just hang out at expat bars AND has morals will know this. I have seen shit that you wouldn't fucking believe - or want to. In ancient times China was undoubtedly a bastion of knowledge, but today people are ignorant, immoral and worst of all; indifferent.

Was it worth it for me to come here and study martial arts? Before I came to China (and many times throughout my stay) I was contemplating suicide and there was nothing for me to lose, so fuck yes. I did a lot of exploration and eventually did end up finding what I was looking for (including myself), but my heart aches daily when I see the destruction of this ancient civilisation and the natural beauty of this area of the world - just how much has been lost. Anyone contemplating wanting to learn rare arts, that may not be better than other arts, but certainly effective in their own right, interesting and worth preserving, had better get their arses over here ASAP because they are on death's door.

But holy fuck you had better be prepared to sacrifice everything for your cause or you may as well just stay home or go somewhere else because this "ain't no Kansas". I strongly believe that I am part of the last generation of foreigners that will have a chance to learn real TCMA here in China, at the source, because there just won't be anything left and no one here is going to lose any sleep over it. And there is absofuckinglutely mysterious about this country except why no one gives two fucks about it.

P.S. Yes, everyone should live in China or India for a short period once so that they can go home and appreciate what they have and fight to save it!

[windwalker]

But holy fuck you had better be prepared to sacrifice everything for your cause or you may as well just stay home or go somewhere else because this "ain't no Kansas". I strongly believe that I am part of the last generation of foreigners that will have a chance to learn real TCMA here in China, at the source, because there just won't be anything left and no one here is going to lose any sleep over it.

We each have our own karma to work through.
Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations, hope in the end it works out for you.

Anyone studying an art that is tied uniquely to its culture should in my opinion
go to the source to study. Not to live as the locals do but to get an very unique perspective
and hopefully meet some of the founders or family members of the respective art.

Having lived in China, specifically only to study with my teacher there. I found it to be very rewarding, and helped me to formulate my own views and skill sets. Much of it I’m still digesting to this day. I still go back to visit him, but not to live there,
although I will be moving and living in Taiwan shortly...I call it China "lite" for me China after awhile started to feel
very respective in a way that Taiwan does not.

While in China, I did start to do the teach English thing but felt my time would be better spent training. Also as you've noted I too had to really evaluate my own reasons for staying vs making and living life . It's a choice that all have to make,,I found that longer one was there the harder it was or would be to come back..

Reading the accounts of others in China, they seem to differ from mine in the aspect that I never compared it to anything else...China, is China...
One does need to be very clear inside and hopefully have a good inner sense that allows them to meet the “right” people…Lots of “wrong” people around.

I’ve found the MA scene to be a little different in that unless one had a good command of the language one might find themselves in a confusing and bad situation. They don’t play too well with outsiders, the locals have a lot of cultural norms that if not understood will tend to cause problems for those who don’t. Wining at something is not always really winning ...

No it "ain't no Kansas” Its very layered, pays to keep an open mind. I don’t know about being the last generation of anything. My thought are that there will always be those who carry on the traditions its up to the seeker to find them.

MaartenSFS, you are a true seeker, much respect

I think if you do, or when you come back to the US you might find yourself very broad and even a little frustrated as
it “ain't no China”

Happy holidays, best of luck

david

[.Q.]

I hardly have any Chinese friends not because I don't understand them or because I'm a foreigner but because I choose not to be a part of a society where everyone is constantly trying to use each other to climb a little higher up the social ladder and would do anything to get there.

That's even among people you train with? Always thought a decent percentage of MA people would not be like that, even though obviously some will be. That description does match what people said about those in LA though. I had a friend who was a super nice guy and after he moved to LA a few years he started assigning number values to people and himself. I've only been to China on a short trip to my old teacher's teacher's school. I kind of liked some of the local villagers (besides their chain smoking) but Beijing people sounded exactly like what you described.

[MaartenSFS]

I've lived in several areas of China over the past years and it's the same everywhere. No one has any social security (the feeling), so parents and society constantly pressure children to be little money-making robots. You need to constantly lie to give or safe face in China. They are really good at it. It's extremely difficult to gauge what they are actually thinking. Getting along with people during training is one thing, but getting to know them on a deeper level, depending on one another, is a different matter entirely. Generally, though, the main reason I don't get along with most locals is because they only think about work and aren't adventurous at all. My only Chinese friends are martial artists, but I've been burned there as well. Still, one can find a few strange ones here and there. They're fucked in China, though, if they think any different than anyone else.

[MaartenSFS]

But holy fuck you had better be prepared to sacrifice everything for your cause or you may as well just stay home or go somewhere else because this "ain't no Kansas". I strongly believe that I am part of the last generation of foreigners that will have a chance to learn real TCMA here in China, at the source, because there just won't be anything left and no one here is going to lose any sleep over it.

We each have our own karma to work through.
Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations, hope in the end it works out for you.

Anyone studying an art that is tied uniquely to its culture should in my opinion
go to the source to study. Not to live as the locals do but to get an very unique perspective
and hopefully meet some of the founders or family members of the respective art.

Having lived in China, specifically only to study with my teacher there. I found it to be very rewarding, and helped me to formulate my own views and skill sets. Much of it I’m still digesting to this day. I still go back to visit him, but not to live there,
although I will be moving and living in Taiwan shortly...I call it China "lite" for me China after awhile started to feel
very respective in a way that Taiwan does not.

While in China, I did start to do the teach English thing but felt my time would be better spent training. Also as you've noted I too had to really evaluate my own reasons for staying vs making and living life . It's a choice that all have to make,,I found that longer one was there the harder it was or would be to come back..

Reading the accounts of others in China, they seem to differ from mine in the aspect that I never compared it to anything else...China, is China...
One does need to be very clear inside and hopefully have a good inner sense that allows them to meet the “right” people…Lots of “wrong” people around.

I’ve found the MA scene to be a little different in that unless one had a good command of the language one might find themselves in a confusing and bad situation. They don’t play too well with outsiders, the locals have a lot of cultural norms that if not understood will tend to cause problems for those who don’t. Wining at something is not always really winning ...

No it "ain't no Kansas” Its very layered, pays to keep an open mind. I don’t know about being the last generation of anything. My thought are that there will always be those who carry on the traditions its up to the seeker to find them.

MaartenSFS, you are a true seeker, much respect

I think if you do, or when you come back to the US you might find yourself very broad and even a little frustrated as
it “ain't no China”

Happy holidays, best of luck

david

Thank you, David. You are right, to be sure. When I left China the first time (after being here for over four years) it was impossible to readjust to society back in the West. I felt like I still had so many things that I wanted to do in China. Now, another five and a half years in China later I'm feeling less so. I really want to live somewhere in Latin America on my next journey and learn Spanish perhaps. We'll see..

Hopefully there will be a market in America for what I've learned here. Either way, I'll have satisfied my own personal ambitions by the time I leave here.

Happy holidays there as well!