Putin Puts Trump to the Test

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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby Steve James on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:35 pm

They already know how much collateral damage there will or will not be.


Really not the point in this case, though. Collateral damage is a risk, not an expectation; that's why it's "collateral." You said we didn't sign the Geneva Conventions, which prohibits deliberate attack of non-combatants. I agree with that convention. But, sure, we could actually blow up a city with one missile in order to kill a man, and even assess how many thousand non-combatant civilians might die. That wouldn't make it moral. Of course, the whole point of this drone warfare is to minimize casualties. As you said though, it's war. And, anyone who can see a bomb can also be hit by that bomb.

However, Deliberately targeting civilians (even if they are the families of mass murderers) is a no no in most peoples' books. Yeah, there are exceptions who are either immoral, amoral or just sociopaths devoid of conscience. Fortunately, those people are rare.
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby windwalker on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:51 pm

This is what I was refering to...

The United States signed the 1977 Protocols, but Congress refused to ratify them. Recent interest in the Geneva Convention has been sparked by the treatment of Taliban and Al Qaeda prisoners of war held by the United States at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.Jun 4, 2009


The rationale given by President Reagan to the Senate for not pursuing ratification was that the protections of the Protocols would be afforded to irregular forces regardless of whether those forces had made an effort to “distinguish themselves from the civilian population.”

In effect, they would oblige the U.S. to protect persons who, in the U.S.’ view, violated traditional norms of humanitarian law and safety of civilians in wartime. Put more directly: The U.S. wasn't keen on being in the position of protecting terrorists who might hide among civilians.

https://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-US-no ... Convention
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby Steve James on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:36 pm

Sure, actually, I had to read all the conventions and protocols. The reasons here are clear in your citation:

"In effect, they would oblige the U.S. to protect persons who, in the U.S.’ view, violated traditional norms of humanitarian law and safety of civilians in wartime."


The entire point of the [protocol] is "not" to violate traditional norms of humanitarian law and safety of civilians in wartime. I will, however, cite the two 1977 protocols that we did not ratify.

Protocol I: In this additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions, the signing Nations agreed to further restrictions on the treatment of "protected persons" according to the original Conventions. Furthermore, clarification of the terms used in the Conventions was introduced. Finally, new rules regarding the treatment of the deceased, cultural artifacts, and dangerous targets (such as dams and nuclear installations) were produced.

Protocol II: In this Protocol, the fundamentals of "humane treatment" were further clarified. Additionally, the rights of interned persons were specifically enumerated, providing protections for those charged with crimes during wartime. It also identified new protections and rights of civilian populations.


Which ones do you disagree with? Reagan's rationale was based on the fact that civilians were being used as shields by "irregular" (yeah, "terrorist") forces. In fact, this was not new; but, it made sense to avoid signing a contract that made it a war crime to fire on villages being held by those people. Yep, it's possible to agree or disagree with the '77 protocols. I tend to agree. But, I also understand that a soldier will have to defend him or herself even if his attacker is holding a baby.
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby windwalker on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:03 pm

Steve James wrote:Speaking of morality, there's his opinion on torture. (Again, I know. Look at what the Saudis do). Anyway:

John Yoo, a former Justice Department attorney known for writing legal memorandums on enhanced interrogation tactics known as the Torture Memos, says President Donald Trump has gone too far in his use of executive power.

In a New York Times op-ed on Monday, Yoo argues that Trump's use of executive power is worrisome.

"He should understand the Constitution's grant of executive power," Yoo wrote, referencing Alexander Hamilton, who co-wrote the Federalist Papers, a series of essays on the Constitution.

"He should share Hamilton's vision of an energetic president leading the executive branch in a unified direction, rather than viewing the government as the enemy. He should realize that the Constitution channels the president toward protecting the nation from foreign threats, while cooperating with Congress on matters at home."

Yoo said Trump, as commander in chief, does not have the constitutional authority to order the construction of a border wall, nor does he have the power to terminate trade deals negotiated by Congress, like the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

Yoo said that Trump's executive order imposing a temporary ban on nationals from seven predominantly Muslim countries entering the United States "falls with the law," but noted reports that Trump had originally sought a "Muslim ban." Yoo said such an order would "violate the Constitution's protection for freedom of religion or its prohibition on the state establishment of religion."

"Had Mr. Trump taken advantage of the resources of the executive branch as a whole, not just a few White House advisers, he would not have rushed out an ill-conceived policy made vulnerable to judicial challenge," he wrote.


Yeah, so who's this guy Woo and what does he know, aopt our fearless leader? He wrote these about all that waterboarding and enhanced stuff. http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.08.01.pdf


Glenn Greenwald has argued that Yoo could potentially be indicted for crimes against the laws and customs of war, the crime of torture, and/or crimes against humanity.[53] Criminal proceedings to this end have begun in Spain: in a move that could lead to an extradition request, Judge Baltasar Garzón in March 2009 referred a case against Yoo to the chief prosecutor.[54][55] The Spanish Attorney General recommended against pursuing the case.


I should respect his views because?
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby grzegorz on Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:30 pm

The Terrorist Trump's SEAL Raid Missed Is Now Openly Mocking Trump

http://occupydemocrats.com/2017/02/07/o ... ed-target/
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:34 am

windwalker wrote:Overhearing a conversation between 2 lawyers in a coffee shop talking about whats going on.
One a women the other a man...I had asked something about some of the points they we'er talking about..

Big mistake :o the man got very agitated unexpected for me as they identified themselves as lawyers.
Would have been a big mistake for him, had he followed up on his agitation. Luckily for both of us he and her
got up and left after some words,,,,

lesson learned: seems like there can be really no dialog even among people who one would
think would be very un-emotional

not good,,, :-\


Be safe, lawyer or not you never know how a fight can turn out and being that they were lawyers chances are that it wouldn't have ended there. I stay away from politics with strangers and co-workers but I don't hide them as much keep it to myself unless asked. Besides most people don't follow politics much anyway.
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:54 am

lol, you don't need to respect Yoo. He's the guy who wrote "the book" on torture, and he thinks Trump wants to go too far. You point out that some consider him a war criminal. So, why should I respect Trump?
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:54 am

Steve James wrote:lol, you don't need to respect Yoo. He's the guy who wrote "the book" on torture, and he thinks Trump wants to go too far. You point out that some consider him a war criminal. So, why should I respect Trump?


Thats up to you as to why you should respect someone one or not.

like it or not

"Trump" is the elected President of the United States.

I hope he does well for the country, just as I did when "Obama"
held the office.

Always felt and looked at 'Trump"as a 3rd party candidate.
Had he been part of the political class, more then likely his statements
would be highly scripted. It will be interesting to see how his cabinet
picks handle and interact within the offices they hold.

You've mentioned his biggest problem might come from the GOP,
I agree, on both sides need to get some new people in office.
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:20 am

grzegorz wrote:
windwalker wrote:Overhearing a conversation between 2 lawyers in a coffee shop talking about whats going on.
One a women the other a man...I had asked something about some of the points they we'er talking about..

Big mistake :o the man got very agitated unexpected for me as they identified themselves as lawyers.
Would have been a big mistake for him, had he followed up on his agitation. Luckily for both of us he and her
got up and left after some words,,,,

lesson learned: seems like there can be really no dialog even among people who one would
think would be very un-emotional

not good,,, :-\


Be safe, lawyer or not you never know how a fight can turn out and being that they were lawyers chances are that it wouldn't have ended there. I stay away from politics with strangers and co-workers but I don't hide them as much keep it to myself unless asked. Besides most people don't follow politics much anyway.


lesson learned ;) They both were talking about it, just asked a question, it did catch me off guard considering they both identified as lawyers
and were talking about the legal part of the current review process.

It is interesting the reaction. A friend and mechanic who works on my car is from Afghanistan. I happened to have some work done on the ride. He and a American Mexican, were talking about the "Trump" and asked me about my thoughts. I pointed out some things that "they were talking about that didn't really accord with what "Trump" had said, it got a little heated but we both agreed to disagree and have different opinions.

I came back the next day to drop off the car. My friend said "you know I've been thinking, after our conversation.
Maybe you might be right I'll give him a chance and see how it goes"

Its not the I agree with or support everything the "Trump" says or does. I just note
what seems to be concerted effort to discredit him with things that when checked are not true
or have been misstated by the media. The media in the US is really not free nor unbiased IMO.

Of course "Trump" does himself no favors...it seems he hasn't made the transition from businessman to politician
yet....whether he does or if it would be a good thing remains to be seen...As it is I would expect some adaptation.
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby windwalker on Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:16 am

UC Berkeley told Breitbart News that they “are aware of the allegations” made against Miller, and investigating the situation, however they did not confirm whether Miller was an employee at the college.

“Our campus police department is working in close concert with the FBI on an ongoing investigation into this matter,” they responded.

http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2017/02/0 ... -milo-fan/

I know, right wing and all. its just another source of news for me.
This guy and others might soon have the time to reflect on their actions... in jail.

update:

UC Berkeley have confirmed that the FBI are investigating the identities of the violent left-wing rioters responsible for cancellation of Breitbart Editor MILO’s talk at the university, according to university news site Berkeleyside.

http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2017/02/0 ... y-rioters/
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:20 pm

Well I still say forget about Trump and those who voted for him because chances are they were correct in what they said Trump said while campaigning. Care to share?

But people still have to work and still need their jobs so I agree that it is best to agree to disagree and find common ground. Yet Trump did call Mexicans rapists and murderers and a ban on all Muslims so yeah those guys have the right to be pissed.

As far as T he is too old and too concerned about himself to change. He won't be there for long.

As to Berkeley losing its funding from the feds this just the atmosphere of fear and intimidation that Trump wants to keep the country in and he will. BTW, they only get about 8% of their funding from the feds, so I hear (not fact checked).
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:22 pm

And I say forget about Trump because...

grzegorz wrote:Image


Feel free to debate any of the above.

We can also discuss why he threatened Australia.

Sorry but I think your view that he is transitioning into a president is a cop out. He was tired on the phone and got hostile with Australia....

I will repeat that. He was tired on the phone so he got hostile with Australia....

He was tired on the phone so he got hostile Australia...
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:59 pm

Or this....

Image
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby Steve James on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:04 pm

Thats up to you as to why you should respect someone one or not.


I didn't bring up respect, actually. I pointed out that the person (that you said was accused of endorsing torture) says that Trump is going to far.

like it or not

"Trump" is the elected President of the United States.


True. And, he's showing himself to be incompetent at that job. And, if part of it is to raise the opinion of people to the U.S., well, you can see for yourself. World leaders are falling all over themselves to show their approval.

Anyway, I'm also hoping for the best.
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Re: Putin Puts Trump to the Test

Postby grzegorz on Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:09 pm

Or this...

Image
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