Wake up and smell the facism!

[grzegorz]

Muhammad Ali Jr. detained by immigration officials at Fla. airport

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /98379082/

[Dmitri]

Another inflammatory thread title, eh...

The title is in honor of the thread wake up and smell the socialism from eight years ago.

I see. My memory rarely goes that far, but I do vaguely remember something like that...
Still, this is not "fascism" -- see below.

Not sure why Dmitri would call this a hyperbolic thread title. Looks like fascism in action to me. Disgusting. I am more and more ashamed every day.

Fascism, as you quoted, is a "system of government and social organization". We're nowhere near that, in this country -- at least not yet. So to me at least, that title is very clearly hyperbolic, to put it mildly. I view it as unnecessarily inflammatory. What is shown is a result of a nationalist-flavored, and very disturbing and disgusting indeed, presidential order. As Steve rightly pointed out, "these type of actions will be carefully directed at certain populations --and not criminals, in general" - that's very bad IMO, and I'm really hoping that ignorant asshole we elected as president either settles the fuck down, or hopefully gets things so messed up that he'd be taken off that position. But let's call things what they really are, not what they might feel like.

[Giles]

Fascism, as you quoted, is a "system of government and social organization". We're nowhere near that, in this country -- at least not yet. So to me at least, that title is very clearly hyperbolic, to put it mildly. I view it as unnecessarily inflammatory. What is shown is a result of a nationalist-flavored, and very disturbing and disgusting indeed, presidential order. As Steve rightly pointed out, "these type of actions will be carefully directed at certain populations --and not criminals, in general" - that's very bad IMO, and I'm really hoping that ignorant asshole we elected as president either settles the fuck down, or hopefully gets things so messed up that he'd be taken off that position. But let's call things what they really are, not what they might feel like.

If I can be allowed a comment as an engaged observer from Europe (where of course we have our own issues with the rise of populist nationalism, right-wing extremism etc.): full agreement with these remarks!
Much better to stay as precise as possible, and also to keep other arguments and labels in reserve in case things get (even) worse. Although it can be really tempting to counter fear- or hate-driven, illogical, distorted arguments (or simply claims) with a dose of their own medicine, I don't think it pays off. By continuing to "go high", or at least 'higher' than the populists, one can seem weaker in the short term but I think it's stronger in the long term. The more one gets into emotion-driven point scoring instead of a fact- and logic-driven exchange (which doesn't preclude emotion), the more the 'alternative-facters' ultimately win because the whole discourse sinks down to their level.

And here endeth the sermon for today...

[RobP3]

Much better to stay as precise as possible, and also to keep other arguments and labels in reserve in case things get (even) worse. Although it can be really tempting to counter fear- or hate-driven, illogical, distorted arguments (or simply claims) with a dose of their own medicine, I don't think it pays off. By continuing to "go high", or at least 'higher' than the populists, one can seem weaker in the short term but I think it's stronger in the long term. The more one gets into emotion-driven point scoring instead of a fact- and logic-driven exchange (which doesn't preclude emotion), the more the 'alternative-facters' ultimately win because the whole discourse sinks down to their level.

And here endeth the sermon for today...

Well said. Of course, the emotional buttons are entirely what trolls. click-baiters, faux-outragers and all the others are going for. It produces a lot of noise but, in the real world, very little heat. I see it as desperation, they know their days are numbered

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Another inflammatory thread title, eh...

The title is in honor of the thread wake up and smell the socialism from eight years ago.

I see. My memory rarely goes that far, but I do vaguely remember something like that...
Still, this is not "fascism" -- see below.

Not sure why Dmitri would call this a hyperbolic thread title. Looks like fascism in action to me. Disgusting. I am more and more ashamed every day.

Fascism, as you quoted, is a "system of government and social organization". We're nowhere near that, in this country -- at least not yet. So to me at least, that title is very clearly hyperbolic, to put it mildly. I view it as unnecessarily inflammatory. What is shown is a result of a nationalist-flavored, and very disturbing and disgusting indeed, presidential order. As Steve rightly pointed out, "these type of actions will be carefully directed at certain populations --and not criminals, in general" - that's very bad IMO, and I'm really hoping that ignorant asshole we elected as president either settles the fuck down, or hopefully gets things so messed up that he'd be taken off that position. But let's call things what they really are, not what they might feel like.

Wow. Dmitri, that was quite the selective quoting. What was the rest of the definition? And what is the current administration doing (and what platform did they run on?). Don't get too caught up on what you have selectively focused on above. Don't forget that two of three of the most emblematic fascist dictators were elected via democratic process.

Chauvinism and nationalism are two of the primary aspects of fascism. We have that in spades. We also have people being stopped from entering the country because of their faith, which clearly violates the spirit of the Constitution. Suppression of the press is also currently unprecedented. I'm not saying we are a fascist state, but the mindset of Trump is clearly that of a fascist narcissist. The question is whether or not the checks and balances will keep him in check.

[Steve James]

Yeah, nationalism and fascism go hand in hand. But, I think in the States some also associate nazism/fascism with anti-Semitism. So, to some, fascism means being anti-Jewish or Israel. If one isn't proposing work camps (for Jews) it can't be fascist. The anti-Jewish argument was a racial argument, though; and 20th century fascism always had a racial superiority angle.

Anyway, if I were Jewish, I'd be concerned about how the rash of vandalism and threats to Jewish communities would bring back bad memories. And, I'd wonder why it all started. Why the uptick now? Remember Kristallnacht? That's one reason why words like nazism and fascism are coming up.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

From Professor Reich

In an interview wth Brietbart News today, Trump said he doesn’t consider all media the "enemy of the American people” or “the opposition party” or “fake news.” He’s referring only to the major television networks (NBC, ABC and CBS), CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post, and The New York Times. "If you read The New York Times, it’s — the intent is so evil and so bad," Trump said. "The stories are wrong in many cases, but it’s the overall intent."

Trump wants the public to consider Brietbart, Fox News, and other right-wing outlets the sources of truth. This is part of the Trump-Bannon strategy to discredit all criticism of Trump and, ultimately, undermine the public's faith in any authority other than Trump. This is the essence of authoritarianism.

So, the President of the US is now giving interviews to the voice of the Alt-Right, which also happens to be his consigliere's pet project.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Yeah, nationalism and fascism go hand in hand. But, I think in the States some also associate nazism/fascism with anti-Semitism. So, to some, fascism means being anti-Jewish or Israel. If one isn't proposing work camps (for Jews) it can't be fascist. The anti-Jewish argument was a racial argument, though; and 20th century fascism always had a racial superiority angle.

Anyway, if I were Jewish, I'd be concerned about how the rash of vandalism and threats to Jewish communities would bring back bad memories. And, I'd wonder why it all started. Why the uptick now? Remember Kristallnacht? That's one reason why words like nazism and fascism are coming up.

Hmm, some people might think that, but that's irrelevant. I know you are a historian or sociologist, so I know you know that there are fascist regimes that didn't round up jews. Franco's Spain, Imperial Japan, etc...Anyway, just substitute Jew for Muslim and what's the difference? We are rounding up Mexicans and other Central and South Americans for the same supposed reason that Mussolini barred Jews from education and certain professions. Hitler was a copy cat, and not the originator of Fascism, let's not forget.

Anyway, I have been studying fascism for some years now quite intently, and your definition (held by others) is simply wrong.

[Steve James]

I didn't give a definition because fascism is a word that describes different forms of governments and societies across time, as you point out. My point was that Americans define fascism (and racism) based on what they associate with the German nazis. Have you ever noticed that Lincoln's hands on his memorial land on fasces --that symbolize a strong government, not even a Romanesque empire.

But, I'm not going to argue with you or anyone about using the term to describe an authoritarian form of governing supported by the premise of racial or national superiority and dependent on the oppression of particular groups and a repression of any opposition. I'm not pedantic about what it's called. I'm worried about stuff like this:

Monday, February 27, 2017 11:23PM

SEA VIEW, Staten Island (WABC) -- Police are investigating after numerous Jewish Community Centers across the New York area received bomb threats Monday.

List of locations that received threats:

In the New York area:

1) Sea View, Staten Island
2) Tarrytown, New York
3) New Rochelle, New York
4) Plainview, Long Island
5) Cherry Hill, New Jersey
6) Tenafly, New Jersey

Across the country:

1) Ann Arbor, Michigan
2) Asheville, North Carolina
3) Baltimore, Maryland
4) Birmingham, Alabama
5) Indianapolis, Indiana
6) Wilmington, Delaware
7) Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
8) York, Pennsylvania

I know, from history, that it won't stop with synagogues. And, I don't even care who is doing it.

[Steve James]

Oh, Ian, I'd also argue that the repression directed at particular (non-Jewish) groups is not really new. I agree with you 100% that laws targeting Muslims and Mexicans (and LGBT) people are like the Nazi laws (Nuremberg, for ex) except they're not aimed at Jews. But, those type of racial laws are old news here. As you may have implied, Germany took lessons from us. (Mike will give you the whole lowdown on our eugenics movement).

I think I'm promoting understatement on this issue. I could make the case about the US having been fascist. But, people will just illustrate how it's not like Rome or Germany or Italy, and that Trump is not like Caesar or Hitler or Mussolini. Then, they'll ridicule the comparisons and those who make them, and never talk about the issue of making laws directed at specific people or groups.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Hi Steve,

Perhaps I misunderstood your implication. From your last post, it would seem we are more in agreement than not--as per usual.

As an aside, it is interesting (and a bit disturbing) to see people I know who used to be staunchly anti-nazi, anti-Soviet and then Putin, how cozying up with the Russian loving Trump and Jew hating Bannon. I guess they hate the "left" even more. Would universal health care and education really create a dystopian future? I just can't understand that. What I can understand is the violent last gasp of an entrenched but dwindling White, conservative, racist, free market loving, wealthy class who has duped a swath of the society who looks like them that they, too, can achieve such status. What a shame they can't see it.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

/\ That was a reply to your second to last post, but still stands.

[Steve James]

Shucks, I'd argue that Mississippi from 1870 to 1960 was as fascist as Nazi Germany. All it lacked were the death camps. If fascism is defined as "an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization," then we have to define what we mean by "authoritarian" and "nationalistic." We know what the "right-wing" is. (Hint: it has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat).

Is or isn't Trump authoritarian or nationalistic? His supporters will probably say "Yes." In fact, that's why they like him. Is Bannon a nationalist? Sure, he prides himself on it. Are any of Team Trump "leftist"? If not, they're on the right. Of course, in common usage, "fascist" is used to describe the 'far' or extreme right. And, although all of Team Trump is not on the far-right, all the traditional far right groups support him. This isn't an exaggeration. He may lose their support if he doesn't live up to their expectations. We'll see.

Slavery was legal. It was illegal not to assist slave catchers. Women, Indians and Blacks were given citizenship through legislation. And, what the law gives; the law can take away. So, I pay more attention to the laws. The authoritarian and nationalistic elements are obvious, but not really fascist by themselves.

[Ian C. Kuzushi]

Okay, okay. I agree with you that the definition of fascism is complicated. I posted the over simplified definition because 1) I didn't want to write an essay about it in the midst of writing a thesis on it, and, 2) It illustrated why I saw such actions as resembling fascism.

To be clear, it is highly unlikely that we will become a fascist state. That has more to do with aesthetics and models than practice or government, though. Fascism was particular to an era. Of course, some would like to go back to that (Richard the punching bag et al), but not most. Frankly, most Trump supporters don't have the intellectual capacity or historical knowledge to even know what fascism was.

My main point is that Trump and co seem to be making moves that are in many ways strikingly similar to fascists of days gone by. Human conceptions and perception work using generic identifications: genres. This is why it can be useful to point to past behaviors and modes of thought which were labeled in certain ways as a warning or to highlight dangers that might otherwise be overlooked or mischaracterized. Fascism is bad (to most people). So, I don't think there is a problem with pointing out Trump's similarities to fascist dictators of the past.

No, we probably won't become a fascist state. But, that doesn't mean we should ignore what we know about past fascists.

[Dmitri]

that was quite the selective quoting. What was the rest of the definition?

What you wrote was:
"[fascism is] an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization"

The point I was making was that it is a system of government, and how the society is/works.

Would this quote have been better?
"[fascism is] an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization"

I wanted to highlight that specifically.

Don't get too caught up on what you have selectively focused on above. Don't forget that two of three of the most emblematic fascist dictators were elected via democratic process.

I "selectively focused" on that because the definitive noun there was the word "system". We don't have that kind of system; we only have a couple of executive orders with that flavor, and the general personality traits of the president and some of his aides leaning in that direction.

I'm not saying we are a fascist state

Exactly; thank you. That was the point I was making.

, but the mindset of Trump is clearly that of a fascist narcissist. The question is whether or not the checks and balances will keep him in check.

No disagreement there at all, I've said things to that effect from the beginning.