Elite runners, elite tendons

[everything]

Shorter contact time when jumping

More elastic tendons

Limited need for oxygen (vs muscle).

Some of the magic of Kenyan marathoners
https://www.google.com/amp/www.runnersw ... city%3Famp

And some fascinating look at "tendon strength"

[.Q.]

Isn't comparing things with more than 1 variable kind of dubious? The compared groups varied in race, athleticism and weight (quite a bit actually). I'm more interested if the only difference is athleticism so we can at least attribute their tendon strength to their training and hopefully be able to copy that result. Knowing their muscles consume less oxygen is interesting, but I'm not sure that was part of the study.

[yeniseri]

Also check out "mitochondrial oxidative capacity" / "oxidative phosphorylation" as elements of a process.
A runner doing his level of conditioning (obviously) will have a different type of fast twitch/low twitch muscle fibre ratio than a swimmer, weightlifter or a gymnast. We all possess the same slow twitch/fast twitch tools but it develops according to the type of activity accomplished.

Does fast twitch/slow twitch muscle type determine ability?
https://www.verywell.com/fast-and-slow- ... rs-3120094


That is why the dietary/nutrition element is important because if essentail elements (iron/magnesium/etc)are lacking, the individual's stamina is impactted
Just to get a good grounding, ignore the chemistry part

[everything]

Definitely seems like poorly designed study but questions raised are interesting:

How much can we rely on tendon strength for rebound of force?
What is the relationship between elasticity of tendons and slow and fast twitch muscles?
How does that help us?
What are some possible implications for training?

Probably cannot answer in a scientific way due to the variables issue but still interesting to try to find answers or at least hypotheses.

[Steve James]

How much can we rely on tendon strength for rebound of force?

How about https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3459684/ for some possible implications.

[vadaga]

From https://www.verywell.com/fast-and-slow- ... rs-3120094

'The slow muscles are more efficient at using oxygen to generate more fuel (known as ATP) for continuous, extended muscle contractions over a long time. They fire more slowly than fast twitch fibers and can go for a long time before they fatigue.

Therefore, slow twitch fibers are great at helping athletes[..] bicycle for hours.'

Unless one is talking about time trialling I'd say this is oversimplifying the sport- most group riding actually involves a lot of drafting and a lot of strategic bursts. Due to aerodynamics issues unless you're a supreme time trialler you're not going to break away from a group of riders for any amount of time, just watch solo/small breakaways on a flat stage in grand tour cycling- most get caught Even most hill climbs tend to use a lot of anaerobic power combined with position switching in/out of saddle to rest various muscle groups.

[Steve James]

Yeah, but in cycling, the peloton can ride faster than any individual for various aerodynamic reasons that have little to do with fibers. Except, of course, that a rider with a lot of fast twitch muscle (and muscle in general) have a definite advantage if they get to the last 100 meters with a hill climber. However, almost all the Grand Tours are won by generalists who usually don't win many stages. Often, the do better than others in the time trial stages. Today's Tour of Catalunya race was a great example. The break away busted itself and allowed the pack to catch them in the last 100 meters. But, the winner (Valverde) was the strongest, but not one of the best sprinters.

Cycling is an interesting sport, too, because of teamwork. The winners are usually helped by "domestiques" who do everything from carrying water bottles to providing windscreens for the riders who are the favorites. In general, however, cyclists rely much more on slow twitch muscles. I mean, a track sprinter uses all fast twitch, but his limit is in meters. A day on one of the tours or classic bicycle races might be 150 miles. Well, okay, that's why there's doping, too.

[vadaga]

I suppose that it's counterintuitive but I see what you mean, actually if one is up to speed and spinning at over 60 rpm they are actually using the slow twitch muscles...another thing with cycllng I find is that the energy level is at least as important as leg strength, e.g. one might have legs like tree trunks but after riding for several hours might start bonking due to lack of food/hydration and just not have the ability to go anymore

as for track riding, great workout short training sessions, you really suffer if you overextend yourself though and there's no recovering once you get out the back of a chain gang...the races are just crazy...

[Steve James]

Yeah, track is a different beast. Are you old enough to remember Nelson Vails, the sprinter from the Bronx who took silver at the 84 Olympics? He'd go on road rides, but it was much harder for him to climb hills. It was a simple matter of power to weight ratio. Going downhill, though, was another matter; and, on the flats, it would be impossible to keep up. So, to beat him, or keep up, it was necessary to tire his long twitch muscles by raising the pace overall. That gets to the issue of recovery, and I think it applies just as much to tendons as to muscles.

For ex., afa rpm, Froomey rides at 97+ uphill. The advantage is that there is X distance at Y incline to cover. Give that an overall figure of N, and every cyclist will have to complete that much work. No matter the time, but faster is better. So, the guy who pedals more will have divided the work up more. Obviously, pushing a lower gear is easier and uses a higher rpm. Of course, if the cyclist can get a big gear to that rpm, he'll be going much faster. But, you see the problem. That means that cyclist has to have bigger muscles but long distance cardio. Cyclists of that sort are extremely rare. (Last one I remember was Eddie Merckx "the Beast"). Usually, it's us relatively skinny guys --with high power to weight ratio, and are forced to push a low gear anyway-- who are the climbers.

However, a high pedal cadence is fine as long as technique is maintained. That's hard, and what happens is that casual cyclists will waste more energy pedaling than they will be putting into the pedals. That's also the connection to tendon elasticity, and specifically to the ability of a stretched or extended tendon to rest. There are books on pedaling technique, but nowadays it's all very scientific. The smoother the stroke, and the more the energy is distributed throughout the stoke (aopt to only when one foot is pushing down) usually determines pedaling efficiency. Elastic tendons and ligaments around the ankle, especially, are desirable.

[everything]

Shouldn't those tendons be stiffer for less energy loss?

[Dmitri]

Diet (as yeniseri pointed out) and genetics also play a huge role

[Steve James]

Shouldn't those tendons be stiffer for less energy loss?

Well, at least in my generation, it was taught that cyclists needed suppleness "souplesse" much more than strength. I would look at the tendon stiffness issue from the perspective of how many times any given tendon would be stressed. It's a question of how many times can something be stretched and then return to its original shape. It's that (non muscular) rebound quality that contributes to the power distribution. For example, during the pedaling dead spots, tendons allow for the continuous application of power. It's one advantage of having the feel strapped in, so that one can also utilize the up stroke.

[Steve James]

I was thinking of an old article on turkey legs, but this one on ostriches will serve as well. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... onger.html

Scientists who compared ostriches and humans running discovered that the huge birds can store twice as much energy in their leg tendons as we can.

This reduces the effort needed to run at high speeds and explains why ostriches are able to run at up to 45mph for long periods of time.

[Dmitri]

IMA-stylez runnin' ostriches FTW! 10000 years of tendon powah!!

[everything]

so since we're not so gifted, what can humans do to max what we got?

this? http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-trai ... -to-do-it/ ?