Arguments against "program minimum"?

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Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:20 am

I had wanted to do only
- KB swings
- TGU

What are some criticisms of this routine?
- missing X
- bad for you because Y

Any X or Y? How about considering time trade offs and 80/20 rules?
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Peacedog on Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:17 pm

I would add some kind of squat and pull-ups.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:29 pm

I think it's ok, SFG guys try to do it 7 days a week, which if you are doing martial arts training on top of it, that might be a little much. I've backed off on it a bit, and add some 1 day a week of interval training with weights, rowing, and running on top of doing yoga, forms, heavy bag, padwork, and sparring. Although, I have been inconsistent as of late because of vacation, etc.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby everything on Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:26 pm

Thanks a lot. I'm awaiting full healing of a calf injury and attempting rehab of a long term shoulder problem, but hoping to get back to this program in some way.

I tried doing it 7 days a week, but I think that was actually too much.

Squats + pullups sounds like a good addition.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Peacedog on Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:55 pm

According to some, the fundamental human movement patterns are:

squat
press (pushing things over-head)
hip-hinge (bending over and picking up stuff from the ground)
pull (a pull-up)
push (pushing something in front of you)

The interesting thing about resistance training is just how little you need to maintain the body. And what goes wrong when you don't get it.

Also, everyone seems to suffer from volume. Volume from high repetition squats seems to wear out the body just as quickly as playing too much tennis screws up the elbow. Resistance training seems to provide some degree of protection to this, but in the end we all pay for high volume anything.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby everything on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:14 pm

I like this simple theory a lot. KB swing + TGU covers press, push, hip-hinge. so yeah, squat + pull up seems to complete the practice. What about rotational movements, like what you might need to help a tennis swing, for example?

Volume theory makes sense too. I am paying for volume of sports to some degree. I think I probably did too many KB swings, actually, without building up gradually enough. That said, I can't wait to get back into all of this (at a slower pace this time).
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Peacedog on Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:54 pm

I am unaware of any "safe" way to train rotational forces outside isometric holds against a stationary object like a doorway.

Frankly, any loaded rotational movement (being a archer, pitcher, golf, etc.) seems to be a bad idea. The fact that most of these are repetitive movements that are also one sided may be a part of it.

Rotational work always seems to cause problems even in fairly young populations. Even today, after years in the weight room, the left side of my back is substantially larger than the right and that was after only a couple of seasons as an archer in adolescence.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby everything on Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:22 pm

This video (randomly selected) seems interesting, but too much weight is probably a bad idea:


Sometimes I'll hold a KB (very light) and do a few turns.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Pavel Macek on Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:53 am

As for "Program Minimum" (Simple & Sinister), please check out this video of and accompanying article of mine with lots of hints and details:

http://www.strongfirst.com/solid-simple-sinister/

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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby everything on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:48 am

Thanks a lot, Pavel.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Pavel Macek on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:55 am

everything, my pleasure.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Fa Xing on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:16 am

Pavel Macek wrote:As for "Program Minimum" (Simple & Sinister), please check out this video of and accompanying article of mine with lots of hints and details:

http://www.strongfirst.com/solid-simple-sinister/



One of my favorite articles on the site.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby fuga on Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:59 pm

Peacedog wrote:According to some, the fundamental human movement patterns are:

squat
press (pushing things over-head)
hip-hinge (bending over and picking up stuff from the ground)
pull (a pull-up)
push (pushing something in front of you)

The interesting thing about resistance training is just how little you need to maintain the body. And what goes wrong when you don't get it.

Also, everyone seems to suffer from volume. Volume from high repetition squats seems to wear out the body just as quickly as playing too much tennis screws up the elbow. Resistance training seems to provide some degree of protection to this, but in the end we all pay for high volume anything.


Very good suggestions in this post.

In general, keep it simple so you keep doing it, increase slowly, and maintain the elusive idea of building strength rather trying to show it.

Play with volume so you can do the minimum necessary while still trying to hit your goals. This is why I prefer not to work with kettlebells. I'd rather be able to increase weight and reduce volume which allows me to avoid DOMs and train martial arts concurrently with lifting.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Peacedog on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:43 pm

This "play with volume so you can do the minimum necessary while still trying to hit your goals" is what so many people miss when discussing resistance training and human activity.

The point isn't to become a powerlifter as a martial artist.

It is to be a stronger man and by doing so improve your martial art.

As strength is a general adaptation, it only requires a minimum effective dose to improve other activities. As such, its training as a general adaptation should not detract from the majority of training time available to the primary activity.

The more complicated the motor patterns become, and skill driven in general, in an activity the more important this becomes.

Fairly simple repetitive motion performance, like sprinting, can devote more time to strengthening as skill development caps out sooner rather than later. So improvement is more closely related to strength and natural explosive ability (which largely can't be trained much).

With a more skill based activity, like martial arts, the discussion becomes more of a trade off between training time and recovery involving strength and working on the skills associated with the activity. That said, the stronger man given an equal level of skill always wins. And a much stronger man frequently beats a more skilled martial artist.

Now will a much stronger man beat a much more skilled tennis player? Probably not.

But again, a stronger tennis player will generally beat a weaker one as long as they are similarly matched skill wise.
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Re: Arguments against "program minimum"?

Postby Pavel Macek on Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:57 pm

Fa Xing: Thank you for your kind words.
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