the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

What about the psychological issues many people have? Anxiety, depression, etc... All these easy tips may not be so easy for someone that uses junk food as self medication. It's much more difficult for someone to decide to do something about these underlying issues, than saying they want to lose some weight.

Hmm yeah I never thought about that. How would you help someone with that first?

David,

This may come across as callous, but the answer is "don't bother."

Ignoring the fact that it is an issue for the psychiatric community at that point and few people here are qualifed mental health professionals, the reality is that as a layperson you aren't cutting through that force field. It simply isn't worth your time and effort. And by this I mean clinically relevant and professionally diagnosed levels of depression, etc.

Now mopey, 18 and sitting on the couch is another issue entirely that a good health scare and/or kick in the ass can solve.

I say this as I am currently in TCM school and the number of women students who want to play junior psychologist here is staggering. Never mind the fact that most of them would deuce themselves if confronted with the reality of taking true responsibility for people with a serious mental health issue and that it would probably cost them their license.

As many have mentioned, success with body re-composition that is lasting is largely the result of internal motivation and access to the right information on how to do it. As with many things in life, without the required internal motivation, and this can't be given to someone, it just doesn't happen.

Peacedog wrote:The difference was remarkable. His doctor accused him of being on drugs when he went in for a followup.

While I had heard stories of this kind before, I had never actually seen it happen. And this represents what is ultimately possible if someone has the right genetics, etc. As such it was an anomaly.

When I moved to China, I suddenly had a change of lifestyle that had me eating home-cooked meals with lots of white rice, but rarely junk food and ice cream, my previous staples. Three weeks later crossing into Hong Kong I was stopped because my appearance did not match my passport picture very well. Not sure how much I lost, but it was probably around 25 pounds in three weeks and I was unaware of the change until the border crossing incident. After much discussion about the White Devil, I was allowed to pass. I was in my mid-30s at the time.

It should be mentioned for health and determining how much weight to lose, measuring body fat is considered more important than weight. Not sure of the validity of the body fat by age chart.

Michael wrote:When I moved to China, I suddenly had a change of lifestyle that had me eating home-cooked meals with lots of white rice, but rarely junk food and ice cream, my previous staples. Three weeks later crossing into Hong Kong I was stopped because my appearance did not match my passport picture very well. Not sure how much I lost, but it was probably around 25 pounds in three weeks and I was unaware of the change until the border crossing incident. After much discussion about the White Devil, I was allowed to pass. I was in my mid-30s at the time.

A few other ideas, I've used, are making Chinese rice porridge (10-16 cups water/1 cup Calrose or medium grain rice) or soups (e.g., spinach, etc.), Then, make chicken breast/zucchini meatballs (which can be frozen) that can be warmed up in the porridge or soup.

Other versions of Chinese porridge that can be found in certain Chinese restaurants include fish, shrimp, etc.

Marvin,

Totally agree.

And great charts by the way. From what I remember a study of SOCOM operators showed them to largely be in the low to midteens in terms of body fat percentages so the numbers track.

For people who can afford it hydrostatic and DEXA are the measurements of choice. Just make sure to keep using the same methodology to track progress.

Calipers are far too inaccurate for my taste as getting concsistent measurements is largely contingent on operator skill. That said it is better than eyeballing it.

I would also add testosterone levels and fertility track closely to body fat levels in the upper athletic/lower fitness band in men. Although, this is largely an anecdotal observation.

And Michael, great job mate.

Oh Chinese porridge is a great idea.

Interesting charts. I seem to be right on the border of ideal and average. Would be nice to get to low end of ideal.

I have a qualification in advanced sports nutrition and this is perhaps the area i am most interested in ... so my two penneth for what its worth.

Determine the amount of calories required to put you into a calorie deficit to lose weight. Add calorie burning activities, if you don't want to restrict to diet/calories, only.

If the only goal is to lose weight, you can eat whatever, at whatever portion you want, as many times as you want as long as you are in a calorie deficit.

Although Calories do matter, they are not the whole story.

Why isnt a calorie a calorie?

1) differernt foods produce different metabolic and hormonal responces. 100Kcals of sugar and 100kcals of fat will not produce the same result metabolically or hormonally. And as we all know very well know, our hormones have a dramatic effect on our ability to loose body fat.
2) Gut Flora and enzyme production has a direct impact on our ability to actually extract energy from our food. We all know that one skinny guy who eats junk food all day and never seems to get fat. It is looking increasingly likely that this is due to the make up of their gut flora, the mocrobiome and the enzyme production that allows them to digest foods. This make up will directly impact how much you get from what you eat.
3) State of the body during consumption of food. If the body is in a fed state the amount of nutriant absorbtion is different from if the body is in a fasted, exhausted or stressed state. Again this relates to hormones and also production of digestive juices.

So basically, yes eating less calories CAN work, but is not the only relevant metric. If you eat less calories but they are all carbs the insulin responce will cause you some problems with fat loss. If you eat more calories than you need but they are mainly fats you may still loose body fat due to initially malabsorbtion and then due to ketosis.

On helping people loose body fat.

The key is to make it gradual, progressive and absolutely NOT give them a laundry list of things to cut out and do immediately.

There are simply tools that you can use as a 'lead domino' that will impact the rest of the day. A very well proven first step is simply 30gms of Protien within 30 minutes of waking. There are a number of reasons why this is so effective. But i would suggest making this first step for a couple of weeks, then move onto the next step, which may be to reduce carbs in the lunchtime meal ... another couple of weeks, next step ... etc. It is a marathon not a sprint

Perhaps most important however is that everyone really is different when it comes to nutrition. There is NOT a one size fits all. Some people are better on high fat diets, some on moderate to high carbs, some on higher calories, some on lower. There is evidence for pretty much every dietary plan you can think of so you have to monitor how you 'look, feel and perform' at around 30 days then make changes if needed.

It is also worth mentioning that studies suggest the make up of your gut flora actually impacts the sorts of food you want. If you have an abundance of sugar loving bacteria in your gut you will crave sugar ... yes they actually affect your mind! So it takes time to starve them and change the balance of bacteria in the gut.

As with martial arts trianing, things should be individualised to the person, and not one size fits all.

thanks.

So I can haz bacons?

So I can haz bacons?

Oh yes!

...mmm... Bacon!

middleway wrote:I have a qualification in advanced sports nutrition and this is perhaps the area i am most interested in ... so my two penneth for what its worth.

marvin8 wrote:Determine the amount of calories required to put you into a calorie deficit to lose weight. Add calorie burning activities, if you don't want to restrict to diet/calories, only.

If the only goal is to lose weight, you can eat whatever, at whatever portion you want, as many times as you want as long as you are in a calorie deficit. . . .

Although Calories do matter, they are not the whole story. . . .

So basically, yes eating less calories CAN work, but is not the only relevant metric. If you eat less calories but they are all carbs the insulin responce will cause you some problems with fat loss.

My tongue-in-cheek response was directed to the dieter's requirements in the OP, "don't really want to do things," which limited the options. Also, the OP's stated goal was "weight" loss, not fat loss:

everything wrote:If they don't really want to do things like
- reduce sugar
- reduce high glycemic index carbs
- reduce alcohol
- reduce portions
- reduce junk foods
- eat more frequently
- eat more veggies
- do some resistance training
- etc
but they say "I want to lose weight"?

However, the type of calories in your diet can effect the sustainability of the diet, your health and energy. This varies among individuals.

middleway wrote:If you eat more calories than you need but they are mainly fats you may still loose body fat due to initially malabsorbtion and then due to ketosis.

I am not aware of any respected studies that show you can "eat" significantly "more calories" than you need" and lose fat, just because the extra calories are from fat. Per Alan Aragon in the video below, this would be false.

GrahamB wrote:So I can haz bacons?

You can. However per Alan Aragon for MMA and other high intensity sports, carbohydrates will give you more energy than fats. So if you are in a self-defense situation, you may regret all the baconz.

Alan Aragon, whom I like because he researches the most recent studies, states adjusting fats and carbs (within a set amount of calories) does not effect weight and fat loss.

Published on Aug 31, 2016
In this video you'll learn about low carbs vs high carbs diets from a special guest, a well-known master in the nutrition world Alan Aragon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcur7eMI-cg

marvin8 wrote:

middleway wrote:If you eat more calories than you need but they are mainly fats you may still loose body fat due to initially malabsorbtion and then due to ketosis.

I am not aware of any respected studies that show you can "eat" significantly "more calories" than you need" and lose fat, just because the extra calories are from fat. Per Alan Aragon in the video below, this would be false.

The theme of the thread is some people want an easy, less complicated method to lose weight. Keto diets can be helpful to lose weight for some people (e.g., for carb sensitive people), keeping the health risks in mind.

Aragon is promoting flexible dieting which can include Keto diets to diets higher in carbs, which can make dieting easier and simpler. The easy, simple, one size fits all answer is: calorie deficit for weight loss. The individualized/harder part is to make the diet sustainable, healthy and provide energy for each person. Per Aragon, IIFYM (if it fits your macros target) is not pro junk food. The smart IIFYM people expand the list of quality foods in their diet.

There are myths and debates on diets and weight loss. People should be aware and do their own investigation.

@ :54, A ketogenic diet does not make you lose body fat automatically. Being in ketosis doesn’t make you lose body fat automatically. Ketosis does not equal fat loss.

@ 3:11, "Eat more fat to lose more weight is an oversimplification. And it confuses the heck out of a lot of people. It confuses people."

Published on Apr 24, 2017
THE KETOGENIC EDGE COOKBOOK: A Training Manual for Low-Carb, Ketogenic, and Paleo Cuisine - http://www.primaledgehealth.com/produ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_RxaAF4jMo

Marvin. I am not promoting the ketogenic diet. The main benefits of that diet are in the seizure prevention, type 2 diabetes reversal etc. In my opinion.

Note in the part of my post you are quoting i say MAY still loose fat. Not WILL.

If you eat more calories than you need but they are mainly fats you may still loose body fat due to initially malabsorbtion and then due to ketosis.

A very good book on the variability of and individuality of a dietary approachs is 'wired to eat' by rob wolf.

I think the IIFYM model is an often abused and dangerous one however when talking about overal health. I personalky know people who use that model and are often pounding high sugar foods and taking in transfats while lacking depth of micro nutrients.

There are a huge range of factors that can effect your tollerences and biases in nutrition. From genetic history to how you were born. And frankly there is no correct protocol.

A facinating subject non the less.

Thanks

~ The best info I have found for weight loss is at http://www.intensivedietarymanagement.com. That combined with a very low carb / high fat diet has worked to kill a bunch of weight along with lots of pre-diabetic markers in my system. Since I have a family history of hbp, t2dm, etc, I pay a lot of attention go it. The low fat diet was really screwing up all of my blood markers and making me gain weight.
~ I think it helps a lot that I know how to cook, like to cook, and use a huge variety of ingredients from around the world.

Peace,

Leimeng

~ Flatulo Ergo Sum

(***Insert personal one liner here***)