Must we accept ?

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Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:38 am

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People ask me whether I think Kaepernick should stand for the national anthem. Then, I'm reminded how Antifa is trying to prevent free speech. And, I agree with free speech. After all, I'm American. At least that's my nationality. I am supposed to put my hand over heart and pledge allegiance to a flag. I've done it so much, I can recite it by heart. Imho, a person can fly as many flags as he likes, but if he's pledging allegiance to more than one, he's lying to them all. It's no different than having secret wives.

Anyway, kinda interesting to see the Nazi flag strolling down the street. Yeah, I know. Just one. Nope, the people around didn't rip it out of his hands. Good Americans through and through.

I'm glad to know that many of the generation before me have not lived to see this.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby everything on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:53 am

One of the most vile, disgusting, sad, pathetic, misguided, appalling, tragic phenomena of recent history.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:46 am

everything wrote:One of the most vile, disgusting, sad, pathetic, misguided, appalling, tragic phenomena of recent history.


yes it is, might present a different light not justifying but understanding part of the
why. A reaction to other " vile, disgusting, sad, pathetic, misguided, appalling," view points.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgccg9xurE8&t=197s
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:00 am

A reaction to other " vile, disgusting, sad, pathetic, misguided, appalling," view points.


Nazism is a reaction? Anti-Semitism is a reaction? The KKK is a reaction? Okay, fair enough, but they've been reacting for quite a while. They're just out in the open again. No difference.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:16 am

Here's what the US government told its people after WW2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:11 am

Pretty sure the guy with the NAZI flag is from the Traditionalist Worker's Party. Tough to get a sense of how many of them there are, but it was they who were attacked by BAMN at a permitted rally in Sacramento in June 2016, for which one of BAMN's leaders was finally arrested a year later, last month. These are fringe extremists in what I think are very small numbers, but they're tactics of fighting and demonizing each other, as well as anyone nearby, just swell each other's ranks, which is pretty much what they want, and it happens to the less extreme factions on either side as well: Antifa grows, Alt-right grows, and so on.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:42 am

Well, sure, not all of them carrying Nazi flags are Nazis, and all of them carrying Confederate flags are racists.

Still, they're all marching for white nationalism, and people are protesting. Ya see, a Jamaican, Frenchman, German, Russian or Nigerian can say "I'm a nationalist. My nation is" Jamaica, France, Germany, Russia or Nigeria. Right? When they say they want to go back to their nation, they name a country.

When "White nationalists" declare themselves as such, they mean that the U.S. is theirs, and that non-Whites are not legitimate citizens. Now, people will argue "What about Black nationalism?" Um, same problem, where's Blackland? Does it have a pledge of allegiance? I get it. But, to me, the point is "American nationalism" if anything at all, and really U.S. citizenship.

Btw, I've said this many times about "nationalists." Their first and ultimate victims are "their" own. The woman killed in Virginia wasn't an other; she was seen as an opponent. Anyone who is not for them is an enemy.

But, if we want to be equalizing and objective, how about saying the same thing about anyone whose ideology or religion causes them to drive into a crowd of people? Just say the same thing when a mosque is burned. Sure, this guy was a "lone wolf" who doesn't represent ..., and everyone has a right to free speech and religion in the U.S. "We" have principles here. Like it says at the end of the pledge "with liberty and justice for all." Either people be deaf or they'll have to change that part, just like the Statue of Liberty poem.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:39 am

Don't really know how many are white nationalists, but I think it's a small number, growing for reasons that are discussed in the Sargon video windwalker posted. Long before most of them thought about doing something as ludicrous as marching with tiki torches, they were often denied the right to speak and to come together, to listen to other speakers, to have a voice. I doubt more than a few of them have taken the time I did to check enough of Richard Spencer's videos, articles, etc., in order to finally nail down a concretely reprehensible policy idea for which there are no weasel words sufficient to deny its obscenity and absurdity. I think most of them are just tired of being on what they think is the receiving end of something unfair or unjust and have chosen a side.

I don't hear the mainstream media discussing concrete policy points of the white nationalists that would probably be sufficient to dissuade recruitment drives like Charlottsville. They merely affix labels.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:48 pm

No problem.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby everything on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:06 pm

Policy points like
- oppress women
- oppress people of color
- try to take resources from brown and native people?
- restore perceived white (male) privilege (it obviously still exists but not for these people)
- being more racist will solve their woes

Someone should maybe tell them about
- AI job concerns could bring more pain for low and high skill workers
- execs like Trump outsourcing jobs to brown humans
- China tech IP output rapidly surpassing USA
- No racist view can change those trends.
Not that they could understand it.
What makes people so igonorant and stupid?
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:56 pm

Well, there's 4% unemployment, free community colleges, less regulations in the coal industry. I'm really sorry for those who can't find work. I'm betting that even if there were 1% unemployment, there'd still be the complaint that "others" are taking jobs.

Afa the KKK, they were saying the exact same thing in 1925.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UomPUYgxSTY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_QbpX_bm5Q
Last edited by Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby everything on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:37 pm

Somebody ELSE who's not white and male must be blamed though
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:59 pm

everything wrote:Somebody ELSE who's not white and male must be blamed though


That's whether he has a job (meaning he's taken one away) or he's unemployed (and he's sucking off the government tit). Of course, only others suck. Real Americans are getting what they're entitled to. Anyway, right before the last election, the WSJ studied employment trends. https://www.wsj.com/articles/as-skill-r ... 1472733676

It's true that there are economic issues. If it's their excuse, so be it. I could care more. None of it has anything to do with being a U.S. citizen. I even feel sympathy for the crack, meth and opiod addicts. There's actually an historical connection between speed and Nazis.

It is nice to be able to talk about American Nazis now, and not be told that they don't exist. People an explain why they're out again; but, the result is the same. I just want exactly for them what they want for other people born here. Afa immigrants, shucks, 45's new law supposedly gives preference to immigrants with skills. That, along with automation and AI, does not bode well for the unskilled. Then again, this was supposed to be "America" dammit, where anyone could become president.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:32 pm

Unite the Right organizers and Richard Spencer went through all the correct legal requirements for the rally in Charlottsville, including full support from the ACLU and the federal courts, but they were attacked by Antifa and Black Lives Matter, who are willing to attack anyone showing up in a place where Spencer, or even one actual nazi is found among a group of anywhere from 70-95% (pure guestimate, best I can do) attendees who are merely right-leaning conservatives, some of whom show up without any tolerance for types like Spencer, but are there just because they're done being bullied into silence by Antifa and other extreme leftists.

Spencer belongs to the National Policy Institute, which has put forth the proposal that non-European immigrants, especially first generation, be given the option of re-patriation to their home countries, for which there would be monetary compensation. If this were to become a law or govt endorsed policy of some kind, quite predictably groups of "concerned citizens" would "encourage" non-whites to GTFO back to wherever you came from, here's a penny on the dollar for that nice business/house/life you have, be a shame if anything happened to it. Do I need to elaborate on this disgusting proposal? And yet, I had to go digging for about a week to find this and I have never heard it publicized by Spencer's detractors, interviewers, or anyone in the mainstream or other media. Maybe they all simply stopped short of putting their finger on something like this, thinking other information was sufficient to condemn these white nationalists, but I think there is something else at play.

The term nazi has been affixed by the far left, including by the media, to pretty much anyone who doesn't pre-emptively call Trump a nazi, as well as anyone who supports him. The dichotomy created by the ideologues on both sides have established dominant oppositional forces that I think some people are choosing, or associating with, who are not extremists, but feel they have to take a moral or political stand and see this as the only safe or effective way to do it. The denial of people's right to speak, to hold rallies, etc., is being done completely by the left to the right, to the conservatives, but I think if you let someone like Spencer speak freely and pose a few good questions to him, it would actually keep his group's membership to a bare minimum. Instead, anyone anywhere on the right is in jeopardy of having an incorrect nazi label affixed to them, including anyone even remotely on the conservative side, or who has any specific support for a particular Trump policy, or for the president in general.

everything wrote:Policy points like
- oppress women
- oppress people of color
- try to take resources from brown and native people?
- restore perceived white (male) privilege (it obviously still exists but not for these people)
- being more racist will solve their woes

I don't think the oppress women is one of them, but these things you've listed have become accusations hurled at many, many more than the white nationalists who actually endorse some of these policies.

Why do you think white male privilege exists? I don't think this term has any validity.

Someone should maybe tell them about
- AI job concerns could bring more pain for low and high skill workers
- execs like Trump outsourcing jobs to brown humans
- China tech IP output rapidly surpassing USA
- No racist view can change those trends.
Not that they could understand it.


What makes people so igonorant and stupid?

The white nationalists claim to be the ones who are now the oppressed group and that anti-white hatred is effectively government policy as well as an accepted social attitude. There are other white males who share this particular viewpoint of being disenfranchised, but who have no inclination whatsoever toward white nationalism or racism.

Kind of a side thing, but what's your take on China tech IP outpacing the USA?
Michael

 

Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:30 pm

but they were attacked by Antifa and Black Lives Matter,


Where'd you get that? Really? The guy who ran down twenty people was being attacked? Ya know, 40 years ago, I would expect that to be a valid defense in VA. I got to the point for a while that I said, nah. But, starting with the Twinkie defense, I realized that it almost always works.

Oh, I know. I saw the pictures of people fighting. I'd just be more sympathetic to the white nationalists, or their supporters, if those leftists had driven a car into them.

The white nationalists claim to be the ones who are now the oppressed group and that anti-white hatred is effectively government policy as well as an accepted social attitude.


The government is 90% white. That was my point about nationalists. You're either with 'em or against 'em. So, now the white government is the problem. Note; being white doesn't prevent them from being the enemy. It's typical. Most of the people killed in the secession were white. Most of the victims of the Nazis were White. The 20th century was full of white on white violence.

Bringing BLM into the equation is a nice tactic. Of course, BLM has a long history of oppressing white people, unlike the KKK and Nazis. And, of course, though it's easy to find white people protesting by wearing BLM tee shirts, they're not considered white; they're called leftists or worse. And, it's claimed that each one of them hates whites, throws bottles, starts fires, wants to destroy the Constitution and free speech. (I.e., all the things that Americans have fought against and died for since the revolution).

There are other white males who share this particular viewpoint of being disenfranchised, but who have no inclination whatsoever toward white nationalism or racism.


Yeah, they expect that being a white male means they should be better off than they are. It's hard to be proud of something that has no benefit. Seeing all those unqualified women and non-white men employed or in college must be frustrating. That is, if you believe that if you're out of work, and a woman or non-white male is working, that person is taking your job. Not that you know how to code or pick peaches.

But, yeah, I can understand how they might feel disenfranchised. But, sorry, I think that other groups have been disenfranchised more, and longer, and don't have the advantage of running all three branches of government, the economic system, and the media. Disenfranchised, perhaps, but not more than anyone else. In fact, the unemployment rate among others is much higher. There are plenty of jobs that go unfilled in lots of industries, especially those that require education.

Anyway, I'm all for understanding their feelings. I'll just treat them the way any red-blooded American national would. No problem. If they want to protest for equality, I'm down with that.
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