Must we accept ?

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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:09 am

My point is that violence from the left creates a dichotomy where conservatives end up on the same side as white nationalists.


No one can help that conservatives or Christians join white nationalist movements. They have always made up the bulk of white nationalists. That goes back to the 50s civil rights era.

Where your argument is valid is that white nationalists have nowhere else to recruit from. If their recruits are convinced that others are taking away their privileges and rights, it's fairly simple.

Afa stopping Antifa violence, we can agree. If you claim that Antifa causes white nationalism, then you're way off. They could easily claim to just be nationalist and leave out the white part. They can claim that others are taking away their country, and wear MAGA hats. They can't expect others, and most of all other white people, from disagreeing.

How about that "E pluribus unum" motto. Or, the pledge of allegiance, or the Statue of Liberty? Do they believe in that? How about the Declaration of Independence and "Equal Justice Under Law"? If they believe in those things, any American should be willing to fight for those principles. That's what Americans (at least US Americans) need to commit themselves to first.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:14 am

Okay, video wars. Here's a KKK comparison.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbF6TQc2904
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Dmitri on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:58 am

Trick wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

I'm not sure how you're trying to argue with that link against Steve's "Poland invaded Germany in 1939. That was the story they gave at the time. Big lie."

Have you looked at what your link points to? :)

The invasion was referred to by Germany as the 1939 Defensive War since Hitler proclaimed that Poland had attacked Germany and that "Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier."[27]
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:34 am

Yep, that's why you can't blame all Germans. They were sucked in, even many Jews --who were proud to be German. Besides, the Nazis controlled the "media," and of course burned the books, threw out the professors, and put the intellectuals along with the hated Jews in the labor camps. So, if anyone disputed the lie (and saw the emperor was naked) was immediately silenced.

Neo-nazis, btw, will still tell Hitler's side of the story and say he was protecting the fatherland. They also tend to minimize the number of Jews killed, and that the concentration camp footage was all staged. I.e., it didn't happen. This isn't incidental to their beliefs. It's why they're "neo" Nazis. Ask any of their many members who have left, and they'll tell you so. There are lots of videos with them telling their stories.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_22YEd3ZK4
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Trick on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:02 am

Dmitri wrote:
Trick wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

I'm not sure how you're trying to argue with that link against Steve's "Poland invaded Germany in 1939. That was the story they gave at the time. Big lie."

Have you looked at what your link points to? :)

The invasion was referred to by Germany as the 1939 Defensive War since Hitler proclaimed that Poland had attacked Germany and that "Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier."[27]

No arguing about what was said, written or pact'ed back then, Steve brought up the 2WW German invasion of Poland, but as it seems that it was an agreed joint invasion by Nazi-Germany and Soviet Union, represetatives of two violent ideologies that eventually clashed........and those ideologies continue to clash, and as seen also today in the USA..............Now, I hope it's Ok to really dislike Nazism, Communism and Anarchism all together?...or "Must we accept" one of them?
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:19 am

You missed my point. We know that Hitler and Stalin "colluded" on the invasion of Poland. My point was that the Nazis used the pretense of being attacked to legitimize their invasion. That's what they said. It was not true. It was a "Big Lie."

If you're trying to make an analogy to today. Clearly, it is not the communists and the nazis collaborating on anything. Rather, you're arguing that they are at odds. And, even if you continue your analogy, the non-nazi west allied with the communist east to defeat the Germans. The Soviets lost more people by far than anyone.

In fact, it's a big part of tension today between the Ukraine and Russia. Remember two years ago when people were saying that Putin was right to fight because the Ukrainians were Nazis. Oh, but they're not so bad when they're here.
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no we must not, but...

Postby jimmy on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:16 pm

ImageImageImageSettle in... cuz this one's gonna take a while...
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:56 pm

Steve, the difference between the video you posted about KKK killings and the videos I posted about Antifa violence is their topicality, time of occurrence, and that leftist political violence is endorsed, "understood" as some put it, or ignored by the media and academia. According to the mainstream media and academia, swastikas, Hitler and Nazis are bad, but hammers, sickles, Mao, Lenin and Che Guevera are good.

When the police respond to the initial Anftifa intimidation tactics and preliminary violence, they usually do so by controlling the space and movements of the conservative side, inadvertently acting as Antifa escorts. It is extremely rare to see the police respond to attacks by arresting Antifa members who initiated violence in the early stages of a conflict, partly because of the difficulty of identifying them since they all wear similar black clothing that covers their faces.

Next, when people defend themselves from Antifa and the violence escalates, the police can be seen to stand by, apparently following a policy, as seen in Berkeley Feb. 2017 where they dutifully observed a mob of Antifa hitting a man over the head with a bike lock, hitting women over the head with poles, starting fires, beating someone unconscious on the ground, etc.. At the Sacramento riot in June 2016 they only intervened when someone was at risk of being killed despite his literally standing before a group of riot police begging for help as he was violently attacked by leftist lunatic Yvete Felarka and her mob.

Yvette Felarca and BAMN gang attack man in front of riot police, who wait a lonnnng time to respond. 1 min. 30 seconds.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gle7ysu7eY

Other times, the police simply stand down and let the riot happen for reasons that are difficult to understand, but were described by the mayor of Baltimore in a different event, but in a way that seems to fit the police pattern with Antifa, as giving protestors "the space to destroy".

Baltimore Mayor in 2015 after the Freddie Gray protests, 55 seconds




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_5KQC7k8Lc
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:24 pm

Nice story about the ex-Neo Nazi. Glad to see attempts to prevent the incubator effect on bad ideas spreading in prisons and then spilling out into society at large.

I think that something similar needs to happen in academia, where some recent examples of leftist ideological zealotry include, since Trump's election: (1) Univ. of Toronto's Dr. Jordan Peterson warned about, and refused to use, enforced gender-neutral pronouns. He went to Canadian Senate hearings to give an opposing view and was pooh-poohed, mocked and accused by the senators of supporting the genocide of transgenders, as was Gad Saad. That is the typical leftist response to any feedback, accusations of racism, misogyny, even genocide-supporter. However, once the bill passed, a labor union from British Columbia seems to have validated Prof. Peterson's, Saad's and others' fears by making a video advising its members that using enforced gender neutral pronouns is the law. It really has to be seen to be believed.

Bret Weinstein of Evergreen College was demonized, harassed, threatened and hunted on campus by far-left leaning students, supported by a faculty, 50 of whom publicly denounced him for being a racist because he refused to participate in a required day of absence from campus by white people [there's a detailed back story, but this is essentially the case].

Looks like zealotry to me and it's happening in an incubator or echo chamber of ideological purity that can also be seen outside academia in the mainstream media's refusal to acknowledge or report on political violence from the left.
Last edited by Michael on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:38 pm

Mike, I posted the KKK vid precisely to show that there's a 150 year record of KKK violence in the US, by itself. What's with the desire to preserve history and the ability to ignore it. The KKK and Nazi past is why people protest against them. Simple as that.

How about this, though. Let's say they're equally vile, detrimental and wrong. Why don't we just ban those organizations? How about we treat them the way Trump says we should treat terrorists? I'm down with that.

If we want white supremacists to have freedom speech, let's just do that for ISIL as well. If we want ideological relativism, let's just make it consistent. If the way to demonstrate because they can't have sharia law, why protest?
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby jimmy on Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:58 pm

the funny part is that everybody still thinks they're being rational...
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:40 pm

Steve James wrote:Mike, I posted the KKK vid precisely to show that there's a 150 year record of KKK violence in the US, by itself. What's with the desire to preserve history and the ability to ignore it. The KKK and Nazi past is why people protest against them. Simple as that.

How about this, though. Let's say they're equally vile, detrimental and wrong. Why don't we just ban those organizations? How about we treat them the way Trump says we should treat terrorists? I'm down with that.

If we want white supremacists to have freedom speech, let's just do that for ISIL as well. If we want ideological relativism, let's just make it consistent. If the way to demonstrate because they can't have sharia law, why protest?

I took it for granted that everyone knows about the history of the KKK and Nazis and that they are completely discredited in all American institutions of government, academia, the press, etc.

I don't think banning ideas and their resulting organizations is the way to go in America, I don't agree about banning hate speech, etc., but I think things will work out fine if there is anywhere close to a balanced amount of attention given to extremist ideologies and violence anywhere they're found.

The problem I see is that extreme leftist ideology and violence is ignored by the media. Sometimes it is tacitly approved, perhaps because of of past (and current) violence shown in that KKK video, where people were either in authority or had overwhelming majority or overwhelming force to commit it. Perhaps members of Antifa see what they do as "civil disobedience" against actual or potentially extremely violent people, and do not see themselves, as I and others do, to be the instigators of violence against mostly benign political opponents. They are "head-hunting" journalists, authors, etc., attacking them on the streets with professional looking videographers in tow, poisoning one in a restaurant in Iceland, etc.

However, it's gone too far in one direction on many levels of society. The push back against this includes a tiny percentage of white nationalists and other racists, but the majority push is really being done by a large segment of mainstream society, including Trump supporters, some whom voted for him only because he can irritate the left, who otherwise refuse to engage in discussion, preferring to shout down their opponents.

These are people who eventually spill out into the streets because their ability to organize politically and express themselves has been, to a significant extent, taken away by a convergence of leftist zealots that include Antifa, as well as students radicalized in university for equality of outcome and against diversity of ideas. Those with differing opinions have to choose the same side of the police barricade as "their" version of extremists, finally resulting in the horrible violence recurring this year at various rallies in the USA, and in nearly all other Western countries.
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Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:50 pm

Due to accusations of anti-semitism and Nazism against Prof. Gad Saad, survivor of Islamic terror against his Jewish family in Beirut civil war, Ryerson Univ. in Toronto cancels public speakers on the topic of....“The Stifling of Free Speech on University Campuses”.

Facing pushback, Ryerson University cancels panel discussion on campus free speech

Featured speaker, Prof. Gad Saad's 2 minute video about the free speech event cancellation.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrVmj9m_vSQ
Michael

 

Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Michael on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:57 pm

De-platforming and shouting people down has become the norm for anyone who fails the leftist test of ideological purity, including their own members, as seen in the past several months of international protest and censorship against a documentary* made by a former feminist that did not tow the extreme line of victim status the left claims for itself alone. Ryerson and The Red Pill are two examples, among a growing list, of taking away the free speech and expression of someone with a different opinion, and it's almost always the left doing so against the right or anyone who disagrees with them.

* Cassie Jaye's "The Red Pill" (2016)
Michael

 

Re: Must we accept ?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:59 pm

So, you thought everyone knew about the KKK history. And, you don't believe in banning groups or speech. OK.

Anyway, what should we do about the Antifa then? Or, are they just inevitable enemies? It doesn't seem likely that they will just go away as long as there are fascists. Complain all you want about their protests or manner of protesting, but it has nothing to do with the fact that a woman was murdered most recently. That's if we want to talk about recent events.

It's important for me to add that I'm not really concerned about the KKK, white nationalists, or Nazis because of their threats or actions toward black people. Well, I don't think it's special to stand up for my supposed "race." That would be normal self-defense, and there'd be nothing noble or moral about standing up to them. Instead, I think about two groups of people. First are the white people who've sacrificed their lives for black people and others. They're my heroes. I told you. I can name names. Anyway, the second group are the people who fought the Nazis and were killed before they knew the war was won. I ain't mad at nobody, but I owe those people big time. As much as I can at my age, I got their backs. So, I'm more ... piqued at the "Jews will not replace us" and the Nazi flag than I can every be with Antifa or communists. Post your videos. Watch Shoah.
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