A question for any experienced meditators

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A question for any experienced meditators

Postby northern_mantis on Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:50 am

I would be grateful if anybody could shed any light on a recent development in my meditation journey. I haven't been investing any more time to meditating than usual but definitely have hit a new chapter and I'm pretty sure it's a good thing, no side effects so far.

Basically any really evocative experiences (usually in nature) such as being in water or a strong breeze etc. hits me really hard. Not like 'oh that's nice how beautiful', it's got the impact of a hard body shot, but in a good way. It could literally knock me off of my feet and feels somewhat other worldly and powerful enough that I have to kind of ride it out. As a result whilst still being entirely functional in the real world, most mundane things particularly work just cannot hold my attention.

I've been taught about all kinds of phases of development but this one seems to not fit any of those. If anybody has experienced anything similar or is particularly knowledgeable I would be grateful for any input.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Fa Xing on Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:52 am

I had a similar experience like this when I was a young monk. Best thing to do is be aware of it, not place any particular value to it, it is what it is, and just keep on meditating. You'll get a lot of different experiences here and there that are not necessarily experienced by others, this is why it's always good to have a teacher or other more advanced practitioners to bounce things. Of course, they'll just tell you to be aware of it and keep meditating.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby northern_mantis on Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:42 am

Thanks very much, it always helps to stay grounded by getting other people's perspectives. I have two very different teachers but don't have a particularly good relationship with either. Going through the dark night pretty much solo a number of years ago was no fun!
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:07 pm

I haven't done sitting since I allowed it to blend with my overall training so take my words with a grain of salt.
Firstly because of the structure of meditation the practicioner is unable to see side effects
Secondly having two teachers is not optimal
Thirdly not having a good relationship with either seems strange.
It is hard to know what you mean when you don't describe the method
Do both teachers methods differ if so that can be a problem
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby northern_mantis on Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:37 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I haven't done sitting since I allowed it to blend with my overall training so take my words with a grain of salt.
Firstly because of the structure of meditation the practicioner is unable to see side effects
Secondly having two teachers is not optimal
Thirdly not having a good relationship with either seems strange.
It is hard to know what you mean when you don't describe the method
Do both teachers methods differ if so that can be a problem


Would you also say that because of the nature of the work it's hard to recognise the benefits? Agree that it's hard to see any negatives so I'm extra careful not to disappear down any particular rabbit hole.

The two methods align almost exactly, one is from the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and the other is an all round health coach type trained in an academic setting. Just don't gel enough with either to enjoy too much of this kind of conversation, they do their job fine though so I'm not going to go to the ends of the earth to find anyone else. The meditation is mostly silent sitting, breath work and third eye cultivation, I do neigong seperately as well. It's delivered a lot of profound benefits.

How do you incorporate it in to your training?
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby yeniseri on Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:56 pm

Far from being experienced, one must want to only associate with "positive" consciousness (behaviour of the other) while acknowledging that motha4kas will mess up anyone's sh*t.
Be cool, stay away from 'evil', meditate now and then as needed and be honest and truthful (as best as can be possible) with oneself.
Own up to one's shortcomings while learning from others (good, bad and downright evil motha4kas!

I am still awaiting for the pie in the sky knowing that the hand that one has shat upon will fill up faster than the one that in wished on ??? ;D
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Peacedog on Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:02 am

Exercises exist for training all of the sensory apparatus in the body.

It sounds like, although it is a longer conversation to confirm it, that you have activated the esoteric sensory apparatus associated with touch/the skin.

The easiest way to dumb this down is to get 20 minutes of conventional exercise first thing in the morning. Running, calisthenics, swing kettle bells all work well. Then follow up with the wire beater exercises for the meridians.

Total time for everything should be 30 minutes.

All of these re-establish the proper functioning of the protective qi of the body vis-a-vis the sphere of sensation.

Those that can't learn how to control this become overly empathic and fairly reclusive.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby northern_mantis on Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:38 am

Peacedog wrote:Exercises exist for training all of the sensory apparatus in the body.

It sounds like, although it is a longer conversation to confirm it, that you have activated the esoteric sensory apparatus associated with touch/the skin.

The easiest way to dumb this down is to get 20 minutes of conventional exercise first thing in the morning. Running, calisthenics, swing kettle bells all work well. Then follow up with the wire beater exercises for the meridians.

Total time for everything should be 30 minutes.

All of these re-establish the proper functioning of the protective qi of the body vis-a-vis the sphere of sensation.

Those that can't learn how to control this become overly empathic and fairly reclusive.


That's incredibly useful, thank you. It also kind of matched what I was intuitively thinking. When I went through what had all the characteristics of the dark night I did the following which brought me out nicely.

1. Lots of extreme exercise like ultra running and cold water immersion.
2. Reduced the amount of empathy I have, contrary to the usual guidance people give to resolve issues with people to move on I learned to ditch the dead wood or call people out when they're being dicks. Also tried to be all round a bit more alpha male though it's not my natural role.
3. Lots of heavy duty neigong.

FYI although it's mostly sensory stimulation (includes smells/sounds) the recollection of sensory memories sends me on an equally intense ride.

Interesting what you say about being reclusive, I certainly enjoy my own company. Thanks again, nobody else has recognised the concept you have explained.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Peacedog on Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:52 am

Follow-up explanation.

Most of the advice given out on the issue of meditative induced empathy is complete crap.

Empathy is generally useless outside of gauging another person's intention, environmental factors or tuning the frequency of an energetic form you are actively working with. It is what we don't know about others that allows us to work with them.

The meditative/yogic practices are mechanical in nature. While they harness processes that are not well understood, on which virtually no science is available, they follow very predictable rules. As such an engineering approach to dealing with them works best.

Whenever running into a problem, first identify what is causing it. Then attempt to manipulate the underlying mechanism. Repeat.

The emotional effects are astral/semi-physical in nature, as such are neither physical or mental, and generally indicative of a malfunction. The solutions are usually physical in nature. Over concern with emotions is almost always a waste of time. Address the physical mechanism causing the problem.

Certain Buddhist schools utilize a releasing technique that can be helpful dealing with the energetic swings involved that closely resemble bipolar issues. For a secular version of this look up the Sedona Method (http://www.sedona.com/Home.asp). They overstate the technology a bit, but it works. The downside is that you have to catch yourself in the moment to employ the technique, which circumstances dependent can be tricky.

The hard part is usually figuring out what is causing the issue.

On a practical note, energetically speaking when my reserves are low I go into a magnetic state and start to draw inward, which generates a lot of empathy.

The solution is to go into electric/projection mode which requires more reserves. The role of fitness in this cannot be understated either. And is usually a major short coming in a lot of practitioner's background. Hence the use of exercise. The wire beater exercises also push energy out as well. Doing THREE repetitions of the healing sounds per organ is helpful as well. Total time should be less than 30 minutes and needs to be done daily in the morning. Just like brushing your teeth.

As you mentioned smell being a major trigger this would suggest either an earth, or water, body type. As such, a purely electric form of exercise would be most valuable in terms of maintaining stability. For this reason, I would highly recommend taking up Olympic weightlifting 2-3x per week. Sprints would work well too, but over time the injury factor can become a problem. Masters lifters in Olympic circles last forever and helps maintain body composition as well.

Outside of this I am familiar with 2-3 other meditative solutions, but they all come with significant downsides or are at least temporarily very unpleasant.

Also keep in mind that virtually all meditative work functions by converting vital force/jing into more subtle forms of energetic expression. As such they are inherently draining and push a practitioner into a magnetic/yin/empathic state.

Look up Franz Bardon's first book Initiation into Hermetics for a Western approach to the issue.

Best of luck.

Peacedog
Last edited by Peacedog on Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Fa Xing on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:14 am

I think that the important thing to consider is that ultimately you become your own teacher in the end. This is something the Buddha supposedly had to go through, and most usually have to go through as well. It's easy to believe in bullshit when it comes meditation, "spirituality" and religion, however, the important thing is to not grasp at anything and allow it to just be and you're just aware of it.

Having a teacher in the beginning is important when it comes to meditation, but ultimately it's a solo effort. Sometimes, it's a lonely one at that, you will experience things coming, emotions arising, but as difficult as it gets just acknowledge it, and move on.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby northern_mantis on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:39 am

Thanks both, that's very helpful. I felt that the non-specific advice I've had from teachers hasn't been massively helpful, maybe by dumb luck I've surpassed their experiences. It's been more useful to dig in to the internet archives to get tips, here included.

Oh well, some doors have been opened that may not be easily closed. Hopefully it will work out well, otherwise I can at least be a cautionary example to others!
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Miro on Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:29 am

Forget it. Do your meditation and do not get distracted. Note it (oh, it is here again) and go back to your meditation. It will go away in some time. There is no reason to take it seriously.
We have entered a voyeuristic, or "phanic," era where esoteric ideas and methods are only unveiled and put within reach of everyone because they no longer have any chance of being understood. (Mircea Eliade)
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby KEND on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:51 am

Hi Miro good to see you back. My advice to my students who talk too much and agonize too much is Shut up and DO THE WORK
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby northern_mantis on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 pm

It amazes me that anybody would bother putting the effort in with meditation to just ignore any of the outcomes. Not only that, I've seen too many examples of people being told to ignore what has happening and carry on meditating when their mental health is being compromised.
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Re: A question for any experienced meditators

Postby Miro on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:24 pm

Ok, then play with your new toy. Sooner or later you will find out that the feeling you describe is just useless distraction. That is not any "outcome", that is just byproduct of simple concentration. Every experienced meditator has hundreds of similar experiences. I understand this is your first one, ok, that is good, continue. If you will continue to meditate more years and eventually get a lot of strange things happening, paranormal experiences/abilities etc., you will not want any similar special abilities because they only waste your time. Or maybe (if you want), ask yourself, please: Why do I meditate? Do I want similar experiences? Are they useful? Useful for what? Why?

Hi Kend, I am here all the time. And your advice to your students is great. :-)
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